146 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

IMO, how do you know when you get there if you don't know where you're going?  What you're doing with the "flavor" additions by guessing, I do by shooting for the targets Martin provides.

 

to be clear - not using the target profile doesn't actually break anything - you just think it's very useful to have there for guidance.  is that right?

 

in my opinion it's only useful if you want to use that aspect of the spreadsheet.

 

some people just adjust to get the pH right and leave the water alone.

 

some do the above and then try to get calcium up.

 

some do the above and then adjust an ion or two

 

some do all of the above and try to hit a full up profile.  (this is where the target profile is handy)

Edited by TheGuv, 13 December 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[HVB]

to be clear - not using the target profile doesn't actually break anything - you just think it's very useful to have there for guidance.  is that right?

 

in my opinion it's only useful if you want to use that aspect of the spreadsheet.

 

some people just adjust to get the pH right and leave the water alone.

 

some do the above and then try to get calcium up.

 

some do the above and then adjust an ion or two

 

some do all of the above and try to hit a full up profile.  (this is where the target profile is handy)

I think my water adjusting is very different than most.  I try and get close to the target profile for the beer I am brewing and then look at pH and see if I need to make adjustment to get it in teh right range.  Most of the time I am lucky on my hoppy beers because after I hit my target profile I am in teh pH range.

[positiveContact]

I think my water adjusting is very different than most.  I try and get close to the target profile for the beer I am brewing and then look at pH and see if I need to make adjustment to get it in teh right range.  Most of the time I am lucky on my hoppy beers because after I hit my target profile I am in teh pH range.

 

in general if you pick a profile that makes sense you should be hitting the right pH.  that's what i've always thought anyway.  granted there are a lot of profiles that would give you the right pH.

[neddles]

IMO, how do you know when you get there if you don't know where you're going?  What you're doing with the "flavor" additions by guessing, I do by shooting for the targets Martin provides.

I guess that's the misconception. Having read much by Brungard, DeLange, Palmer, and Kaminski I feel like I know exactly where I am going, or at least where to start the first time through a recipe. My numbers don't end up too far off from the profiles and they are tailored to my tastes. 

 

Another question for you. Why would you make the assumption that I am "guessing" here... without having acquired any knowledge with regard to what I am doing?  

[denny]

I guess that's the misconception. Having read much by Brungard, DeLange, Palmer, and Kaminski I feel like I know exactly where I am going, or at least where to start the first time through a recipe. My numbers don't end up too far off from the profiles and they are tailored to my tastes. 

 

Another question for you. Why would you make the assumption that I am "guessing" here... without having acquired any knowledge with regard to what I am doing?  

 

I was assuming you were guessing because in a previous post you made some reference to you thought you knew what you were doing...or something like that!  If you have a profile in mind, that's pretty much the same thing.  You have a target.  For me, it's easier just to pick a profile from the list and go for that.  Ends up being pretty much the same thing.

[MtnBrewer]

I was assuming you were guessing because in a previous post you made some reference to you thought you knew what you were doing...or something like that!  If you have a profile in mind, that's pretty much the same thing.  You have a target.  For me, it's easier just to pick a profile from the list and go for that.  Ends up being pretty much the same thing.

Agreed. I pick the profile that matches the beer I'm brewing (bitter amber for an altbier for example) and adjust the salts to match that fairly closely. Then I look at pH. Almost always it's very close (5.3 - 5.5) but if not I adjust as necessary.

[neddles]

I was assuming you were guessing because in a previous post you made some reference to you thought you knew what you were doing...or something like that!  If you have a profile in mind, that's pretty much the same thing.  You have a target.  For me, it's easier just to pick a profile from the list and go for that.  Ends up being pretty much the same thing.

Agreed. I pick the profile that matches the beer I'm brewing (bitter amber for an altbier for example) and adjust the salts to match that fairly closely. Then I look at pH. Almost always it's very close (5.3 - 5.5) but if not I adjust as necessary.

Got it Denny. Thanks. I was more or less responding to how you said you HAVE to use the profiles. I wondered ,as Guv did above, if I was circumventing an important part of the spreadsheet that made it function properly. And yeah there are several ways to approach it and we're not doing it that differently. I start with RO and add(or dont add) gypsum, CaCl or canning salt to get those ions where I want them. After that I just add acid, acid malt or baking soda to get the pH right where I want it. I started to ingnore the profies because beer color seems inconsequential if your pH is right and the numbers given for the other ions are really just general guides and not necessarily right where I would want them.

[MtnBrewer]

...numbers given for the other ions are really just general guides and not necessarily right where I would want them.

And that's where I've created a couple of custom profiles and added them to the spreadsheet.

[neddles]

And that's where I've created a couple of custom profiles and added them to the spreadsheet.

That MTN, always one step ahead of the rest of us. Good idea there!

[positiveContact]

bru'n water has a lot of profiles.  how do you guys pick which one to use?

[MtnBrewer]

bru'n water has a lot of profiles.  how do you guys pick which one to use?

Depends on what I'm making. For example, an IPA would be yellow bitter or maybe amber bitter. An o'fest would be amber malty, etc. I ignore the city profiles and I honestly wish they weren't even in there.

[mabrungard]

For those using the free version of Bru'n Water and adding alkalinity with baking soda, you should be aware that the sodium content that is displayed in that version is the concentration in the mash. Since you wouldn't add baking soda to the sparging water, the net effect is that you will be diluting the sodium content when you sparge. The reduction in the sodium content will be dependent upon the ratio of mashing and sparging water, but it's probably somewhere around half. So that 66 ppm sodium concentration will actually be far less. 

 

With that said, 66 ppm sodium is not really a problem. Palmer did a bit of taste testing with sodium compounds in beer and he found that there can actually be enhancement to beer flavor for modest sodium content.

 

The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does properly calculate what the sodium, sulfate, and chloride concentrations will be in the kettle under a variety of conditions. 

[denny]

bru'n water has a lot of profiles.  how do you guys pick which one to use?

 

By the kind of beer I'm making and how I want it to taste.  Rye IPA=amber bitter.  German pils=yellow balanced or yellow bitter.  Etc.

[positiveContact]

is chalk still considered okay for adding calcium or does it fail there as well?  i'm trying to hit the desired profile but i'm having a tough time adding enough calcium without boosting sulfate or chloride levels.

 

or can i even trust chalk to raise pH as predicted by bru'n water?  i'm mostly adding it for calcium.

Edited by TheGuv, 22 December 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[neddles]

is chalk still considered okay for adding calcium or does it fail there as well?  i'm trying to hit the desired profile but i'm having a tough time adding enough calcium without boosting sulfate or chloride levels.

 

or can i even trust chalk to raise pH as predicted by bru'n water?  i'm mostly adding it for calcium.

Pretty sure it's a Fail there too. One thing you could do is add calcium hydroxide. That will raise your pH though so you will need to add acid to counteract it's pH raising effect. So long as you don't have to add a ton of the CaOH2 or acid I don't see why it would be an issue. The quantities of each could be worked out in BrunWater pretty easily.

[positiveContact]

does chalk effectively add calcium though?

[neddles]

does chalk effectively add calcium though?

Well the issue with chalk is its solubility. It's not soluble enough. So the calcium isn't making it into the mash water.

[denny]

is chalk still considered okay for adding calcium or does it fail there as well?  i'm trying to hit the desired profile but i'm having a tough time adding enough calcium without boosting sulfate or chloride levels.

 

or can i even trust chalk to raise pH as predicted by bru'n water?  i'm mostly adding it for calcium.

 

What calcium level are you at without chalk?  It might be close enough.

[positiveContact]

What calcium level are you at without chalk?  It might be close enough.

 

i'm starting off really low - 6 ppm.  when i make a stout i'm already pretty much acidified enough so if i add any gypsum or calcium chloride i need to counteract it with either baking soda or chalk.  if i used baking soda it means i need to add even more gypsum/calcium chloride b/c the baking soda adds no calcium.

[neddles]

i'm starting off really low - 6 ppm.  when i make a stout i'm already pretty much acidified enough so if i add any gypsum or calcium chloride i need to counteract it with either baking soda or chalk.  if i used baking soda it means i need to add even more gypsum/calcium chloride b/c the baking soda adds no calcium.

Yeah I would consider the calcium hydroxide in this situation.