146 replies to this topic

[denny]

Yeah I would consider the calcium hydroxide in this situation.

 

Yep, I agree.

[positiveContact]

Yep, I agree.

the slaked lime seems complicated.  more complicated than the normal brewing salts anyway.  i tried reading up on it but i don't feel comfortable with it yet.

 

can you guys sum up the general purpose it serves so i could at least understand when i should be using it?

Edited by TheGuv, 22 December 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[positiveContact]

so from here: https://braukaiser.c...ith_slaked_lime

 

 

High alkalinity in their brewing water keeps many home brewers from being able to brew lighter beers well. To overcome this obstacle many of them use reverse osmosis water to dilute their water or even build their brewing water from scratch through the addition of salts. Another option is the use of acids to neutralize some or all of the water's alkalinity.

 

 

why would i be using slaked lime in a dark beer?

 

eta: i started reading this last time we discussed this and i just gave up.

Edited by TheGuv, 22 December 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[denny]

so from here: https://braukaiser.c...ith_slaked_lime

 

 

why would i be using slaked lime in a dark beer?

 

eta: i started reading this last time we discussed this and i just gave up.

 

From httpss://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

 

[font="Arial, sans-serif;"]4.3.1 Chalk -[/font][font="Arial, sans-serif;"] Chalk increases alkalinity.  Because Chalk[/font] does not dissolve easily in plain water, chalk should only be added to the mash.  The acids in the mash are weak and cannot fully dissolve chalk.  To fully dissolve chalk in water, it must be dissolved with an acid.  In nature, CO₂ forms carbonic acid in water which dissolves the chalk.  Bubbling air or CO₂ through a chalk water solution can be used to dissolve the chalk, but that requires time and effort. 

[font="Arial, sans-serif;"]Evidence has shown that even in the mash, chalk does not dissolve in significant quantity and the chalk’s theoretical amount of alkalinity is not produced in the mash.  [/font]That evidence shows that the mash pH can only be increased by 0.1 to 0.2 units, no matter how high the chalk dosage is.  Other brewing water references and software may assume either all or half of the theoretical alkalinity is added with chalk addition.  A brewer should verify the assumption made by those resources for the amount of alkalinity added to the water from a chalk addition.  A more comprehensive discussion on the time and pH dependent behavior of chalk is presented by AJ DeLange in the following link: https://wetnewf.org/pdfs/chalk.html

[font="Arial, sans-serif;"]For a chalk addition of 1 gram per gallon, the bicarbonate concentration is increased by about 322 ppm assuming the chalk is fully dissolved.  [/font]Undissolved chalk precipitates from the water and is not an active component of the water chemistry.  In general, brewers should avoid using chalk for mashing water alkalinity adjustment since chalk is an unreliable alkalinity contributor.  Other sources of more predictable alkalinity are presented below.

[font="Arial, sans-serif;"] [/font]

4.3.2 Pickling Lime increases alkalinity and is readily soluble in water, but must be handled with care since it can burn skin and eyes and significantly raise the mash pH if not dosed properly.  Since Pickling Lime can significantly increase the water pH and cause calcium to precipitate out of solution, it should only be added to the mash water after the grain is added.  Pickling Lime can be found where home canning supplies are sold.  It is also available at salt-water aquarium shops and may be found under the names: Lime or Slaked Lime.  Although pickling lime supplies hydroxyl ions to water, the hydroxyl content can be presented as a corresponding bicarbonate concentration for use in brewing calculations.  For a pickling lime addition of 1 gram per gallon, the bicarbonate content of the water is increased by about 435 ppm. 

[neddles]

so from here: https://braukaiser.c...ith_slaked_lime

 

 

why would i be using slaked lime in a dark beer?

 

eta: i started reading this last time we discussed this and i just gave up.

The above quote is not really applicable to your situation. You are trying to add calcium without adding sulfate and chloride. Using calcium hydroxide will raise your pH. Which might not be all bad depending on your malt bill but also may require an additional acid addition that you can estimate in BrunWater. Kai's article, which I wont read right now, seems to be addressing a totally different usage of calcium hydroxide, reduction of alkalinity with it. 

 

This, from BrunWater info page talks about it precipitating Ca. Not a lot of detail but it looks like you are ok if you do this after the water is added to the mash. You will have to plug some #s into BrunWater to find out if you will get enough Ca without jacking the pH way up and having to add a ton of acid. Depending on how the BrunWater estimate comes out your best option might just be very small additions of CaOH2, CaSO4, and CaCl2 to avoid addicting too much of any one thing. How high do your SO4 and Cl get if you use CaCl2 and gypsum to get your Ca levels up?

 

"Pickling Lime increases alkalinity and is readily soluble in water, but must be handled with care since it can burn skin and eyes and significantly raise the mash pH if not dosed properly.  Since Pickling Lime can significantly increase the water pH and cause calcium to precipitate out of solution, it should only be added to the mash water after the grain is added.  Pickling Lime can be found where home canning supplies are sold.  It is also available at salt-water aquarium shops and may be found under the names: Lime or Slaked Lime.  Although pickling lime supplies hydroxyl ions to water, the hydroxyl content can be presented as a corresponding bicarbonate concentration for use in brewing calculations.  For a pickling lime addition of 1 gram per gallon, the bicarbonate content of the water is increased by about 435 ppm."  

Edited by ettels4, 22 December 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[neddles]

Denny beat me to it.

[positiveContact]

this is what happens if i use gypsum, calcium chloride and chalk:

 

      Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Bicarbonate (ppm) Existing Water Profile 6 3 29 14 26 27 Finished Water Profile 58 3 29 58 48 91

 

eta:  well that formatting failed

Edited by TheGuv, 22 December 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[positiveContact]

what would happen if i added nothing to the mash (my pH is already 5.4) and then just added stuff to the pre-boil wort?  would the chalk dissolve then?

[positiveContact]

it's also never been clear to me if the pH changes from kettle additions is the same as mash additions.  anyone know about that?

[mabrungard]

is chalk still considered okay for adding calcium or does it fail there as well?  i'm trying to hit the desired profile but i'm having a tough time adding enough calcium without boosting sulfate or chloride levels.

 

or can i even trust chalk to raise pH as predicted by bru'n water?  i'm mostly adding it for calcium.

 

Bru'n Water DOES NOT properly predict the calcium and bicarbonate contribution from chalk UNLESS the brewer goes to the trouble of completely dissolving the chalk in the water. That is a slow process that requires an external acid (typically carbonic acid in nature) to proceed completely. This process will not fully occur in a mash. However, it might be possible that chalk added to the kettle could dissolve during the boil. But I do not know that for sure. The good thing you mention is that the mash pH is already at a good target of about 5.4. But I'm not really sure why you want to raise it much further?

 

If adding calcium into the wort is imperative for your brewing, there is another way to get calcium into the wort with little alteration of bicarb, sulfate, or chloride content.  Mixing 0.5 gram of chalk and 0.83 mL of 88% lactic acid will add about 50 ppm calcium and about 150 ppm lactate ion per gallon of water. At that low level of lactate ion, it should not be perceptible in the finished beer.  The chalk and acid are proportioned to effectively cancel out their acid and bicarbonate and the pH change produced in the water by that mixture should be small.

[positiveContact]

i was only looking to add calcium b/c of the common suggestion of 50 ppm as a general minimum.  otherwise i don't have much reason to add anything unless i need to hit certain gypsum or chloride levels which i'm not sure is necessary for a stout.  both of those numbers are pretty low for me right off the bat.  i have soft water.

[positiveContact]

at low levels (in this case 0.2 g/gal of chalk) will it actually dissolve at the 50% rate?  most sources say there is a limit and i would think this small amount would be below it.

[neddles]

If adding calcium into the wort is imperative for your brewing, there is another way to get calcium into the wort with little alteration of bicarb, sulfate, or chloride content.  Mixing 0.5 gram of chalk and 0.83 mL of 88% lactic acid will add about 50 ppm calcium and about 150 ppm lactate ion per gallon of water. At that low level of lactate ion, it should not be perceptible in the finished beer.  The chalk and acid are proportioned to effectively cancel out their acid and bicarbonate and the pH change produced in the water by that mixture should be small.

This is good to know. At what point would you suggest adding it? Would you dissolve the lactic acid and chalk together in some water before adding it?

[neddles]

this is what happens if i use gypsum, calcium chloride and chalk:

 

      Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Bicarbonate (ppm) Existing Water Profile 6 3 29 14 26 27 Finished Water Profile 58 3 29 58 48 91

 

eta:  well that formatting failed

For a stout, the numbers in that finished profile seem pretty modest and reasonable to me and not that far off Martin's suggested profile for "Black Balanced". If your pH is where you want it with those additions I'd say go with it.

[positiveContact]

For a stout, the numbers in that finished profile seem pretty modest and reasonable to me and not that far off Martin's suggested profile for "Black Balanced". If your pH is where you want it with those additions I'd say go with it.

 

i agree that would be a good place to be.  but all of this assumes that the chalk is going to work as planned.  my hope is that it would at these low concentrations but i haven't really seen the hard and fast rule on it.  lots of people just flat out avoiding using chalk but i haven't seen where the cut off is.  i see things that say it can move the pH 0.2 or so which is generally more than i'm looking to do anyway.

[neddles]

i agree that would be a good place to be.  but all of this assumes that the chalk is going to work as planned.  my hope is that it would at these low concentrations but i haven't really seen the hard and fast rule on it.  lots of people just flat out avoiding using chalk but i haven't seen where the cut off is.  i see things that say it can move the pH 0.2 or so which is generally more than i'm looking to do anyway.

Chalk?! Oh shit. My bad, I read that wrong. Somehow thought you said additions of CaCl2, Gypsum, and CaOH2. Sorry.

[positiveContact]

so no lime at my local walmart.  they had a bunch of other canning stuff but not the lime.

 

the two routes i'm considering going are:

 

1) do nothing to my water, hit the right pH, and have low ion concentrations all around.

2) add some gypsum, calcium chloride and chalk to get my calcium up above 50 ppm and hope that the chalk adjusts the pH accordingly and adds the calcium i am hoping it would.  if the pH is too low i'll add some baking soda to fix it.

 

what do you guys think?  i don't really have time to acquire any other items that might be used here so I have what I have to work with.

[denny]

I vote #1

[positiveContact]

I vote #1

Out of curiosity what is the general thought on soft water for stouts?

[mabrungard]

Out of curiosity what is the general thought on soft water for stouts?

 You should read the article on Irish Water in Zymurgy. It delves into exactly that subject.