146 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

I'm hoping in the near future to make an export style stout (recipe provided by drez below).  i'm not sure if drez will be making the same additions to the water that I will but I think we both have pretty similar water - that being soft.  so we'll both be needing to up the pH to get it into range.  in the past I've used chalk which i know hear is not a good option.  i was considering using baking soda b/c my sodium levels aren't that high to begin with.  i haven't experimented yet to see how much i'd have to add.

 

another key question is what mash pH should I go for with this style.  i remember hearing a little higher is better.  normally i go for 5.3ish for my pale ales, IPAs, etc.  should I be going for 5.5ish here?  higher?  lower?

 

httpss://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-14qJ7cEoDVI/UqmtqGfGTmI/AAAAAAAAD1c/7xsvGFDqgsQ/w333-h842-no/BrewsBros+Stout.jpg

Edited by TheGuv, 12 December 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Big Nake]

I'm probably no help since I have the opposite problem (lighter SRM beers with harder water) but the talk about raising mash pH lately has centered around baking soda instead of chalk (calcium carbonate) and I think it was mentioned in the water book. Don't make me start up a company called Ken's High-Bicarb Water. It will come in 1-gallon jugs and I will saturate the market in all areas with soft water where homebrewers want to make stout! Genius!

[positiveContact]

how much sodium is okay?  i'm guessing in order to get my pH up to 5.4-5.5 I'd need to get my sodium levels up to about 130.  my bicarb would be approaching 325ish i think.  this is all with using baking soda.

[HVB]

Here is where I am starting.  The Black Balanced is from Bru'n Water

 

        Ca Mg Na   SO4   Cl   Bicarb

Black Balanced   60 10 20 47 38 160

Existing 26 3   19 12 29 68

Adjusted 73.5   3   19 48.9   35.4   155.2

 

PH will be 5.4@ room

[positiveContact]

what did you use to adjust?  my Ca is only about 5 ppm to start out with.  what does this program say you are adding to get the calcium up?  i guess not baking soda.

[mabrungard]

how much sodium is okay?  i'm guessing in order to get my pH up to 5.4-5.5 I'd need to get my sodium levels up to about 130.  my bicarb would be approaching 325ish i think.  this is all with using baking soda.

Why 325 ppm bicarb? That is FAR too high for any brewing. As you may notice above, the water profiles for black beers have somewhere around 160 ppm bicarb in order to produce a typical mash pH. The actual bicarb content will be dependent upon the grist.  Aiming for a mash pH of 5.4 to 5.5 should be fine. I would aim to the low side as a first attempt at a recipe.  

 

With a more modest bicarbonate content target, you should find that you can use baking soda and only boost the sodium modestly. If you have the supporter's version of Bru'n Water, it automatically accounts for the dilution of the sodium from the baking soda since its only added to the mash and the sparging water ends up diluting the total sodium content.  The free version does not give you that information.

[positiveContact]

Why 325 ppm bicarb? That is FAR too high for any brewing. As you may notice above, the water profiles for black beers have somewhere around 160 ppm bicarb in order to produce a typical mash pH. The actual bicarb content will be dependent upon the grist.  Aiming for a mash pH of 5.4 to 5.5 should be fine. I would aim to the low side as a first attempt at a recipe.  

 

With a more modest bicarbonate content target, you should find that you can use baking soda and only boost the sodium modestly. If you have the supporter's version of Bru'n Water, it automatically accounts for the dilution of the sodium from the baking soda since its only added to the mash and the sparging water ends up diluting the total sodium content.  The free version does not give you that information.

 

i threw my approximate numbers into the braukaiser spreadsheet.  i kept adding baking soda until I hit a pH of 5.46.

 

here is my source water:

 

calcium  5.0magnesium  0.0sodium  26.0sulfate  13.0chloride  26.0bicarb  30.0alkalinity  22.0 

here is the resulting overall water profile for a ~10 gallon batch with 28 lbs of grain with 10.8% roasted malt, 39 srm.  i guessed that i'd be using 14 gallons of water (10 to mash, 4 to sparge).

 

if i do nothing at all i'm looking at a mash pH of 5.0.

 

if i add enough baking soda to get me to a pH of 5.4 (30g of baking soda) the resulting profile for my overall water looks like this:

 

5.0  Calcium (mg/l)0.0  Magnesium (mg/l)180.8  Sodium (mg/l)13.0  Sulfate (mg/l)26.0  Chloride (mg/l)440.6  Bicarbonate (mg/l) *361.1  Alkalinity ppm as CaCO3 

I know that bicarb number looks high but what else should I do to get the pH in range?  it's been said I shouldn't be using chalk.

Edited by TheGuv, 12 December 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[HVB]

what did you use to adjust?  my Ca is only about 5 ppm to start out with.  what does this program say you are adding to get the calcium up?  i guess not baking soda.

I used  

Gypsum  

Calcium Chlorode

Pickling Lime

 

Although I need to figure out what is going on because my additions look strange. 

[positiveContact]

interesting that you are pushing the pH down before using the lime to get it back up.  were you doing that just for calcium?

[HVB]

interesting that you are pushing the pH down before using the lime to get it back up.  were you doing that just for calcium?

I am guessing you are talking about the gypsum.  I added that to get my SO4 up.  I guess I could not use it an use Epsom Salt.  unless there is another way.

 

Water is NOT my strong point.

[positiveContact]

I am guessing you are talking about the gypsum.  I added that to get my SO4 up.  I guess I could not use it an use Epsom Salt.  unless there is another way.

 

Water is NOT my strong point.

 

the calcium chloride pushes the pH down as well.  they both working against the lime.  this isn't an issue.  where do you get lime from?  i'd be interested in trying this out as a pH raising strategy.

[HVB]

the calcium chloride pushes the pH down as well.  they both working against the lime.  this isn't an issue.  where do you get lime from?  i'd be interested in trying this out as a pH raising strategy.

Hardware store with the canning things.  I still have a huge learning curve with water adjustments.  I have the book "Water" but have not had enough time to sit down and read it never mind understand it.

[positiveContact]

Hardware store with the canning things.  I still have a huge learning curve with water adjustments.  I have the book "Water" but have not had enough time to sit down and read it never mind understand it.

 

what do they label it as?  canning lime?  i'm not sure what it's used for in canning.

[Big Nake]

Pickling lime?

[HVB]

what do they label it as?  canning lime?  i'm not sure what it's used for in canning.

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/B0084LZU1Q

 

ETA: IngredientsFood Grade Calcium Hydroxide (lime)

Edited by drez77, 12 December 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[positiveContact]

alright then!  i bet i can get tha that at walmart on the cheap.

 

i'm trying to figure out how to use the spreadsheet.  it's not exactly obvious...

 

has anyone done this before?  it seems to imply i need a certain amount of calcium for the lime to work but it's not really allowing me to put in a lime amount to adjust the pH.

Edited by TheGuv, 12 December 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[HVB]

alright then!  i bet i can get tha that at walmart on the cheap.

 

i'm trying to figure out how to use the spreadsheet.  it's not exactly obvious...

 

has anyone done this before?  it seems to imply i need a certain amount of calcium for the lime to work but it's not really allowing me to put in a lime amount to adjust the pH.

Well that explains why my sparge #'s were off to me. 

[positiveContact]

Well that explains why my sparge #'s were off to me. 

 

i'm not following...  just to be clear I'm not using bru'n water so i can't really comment on that.

[HVB]

i'm not following...  just to be clear I'm not using bru'n water so i can't really comment on that.

Bru'n water has a check box that says:

 

"Check this box to automatically add Gypsum and CaCl2 to Sparge Water additions to supplement Calcium concentration when Chalk or Pickling Lime are deleted from Sparge Water.  This is desirable if the Brewer's water has Calcium content below 40 ppm.  The added Gypsum and CaCl2 quantities maintain the Brewer's desired Sulfate/Chloride ratio."

 

My sparge additions were higher than I expected because of this.

[positiveContact]

Bru'n water has a check box that says:

 

"Check this box to automatically add Gypsum and CaCl2 to Sparge Water additions to supplement Calcium concentration when Chalk or Pickling Lime are deleted from Sparge Water.  This is desirable if the Brewer's water has Calcium content below 40 ppm.  The added Gypsum and CaCl2 quantities maintain the Brewer's desired Sulfate/Chloride ratio."

 

My sparge additions were higher than I expected because of this.

 

you mean your additions of gypsum/CaCl2 to the sparge?  in the past i've never added anything to the sparge.  i'm not quite sure why I wouldn't just add to the kettle after i had collected all of my runnings.