146 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

No, I wouldn't recommend that either. But I don't see how you can know you're done adjusting the water unless you've got some sort of idea of what water profile you want to end up with.

 

like i said - minimal changes to hit mash pH and often calcium levels in the kettle.  after that i often don't touch it.  my water doesn't have much to begin with.

 

what more should I be doing?

 

or are you confused about how I know when I've hit the pH I want?  if that is the question the spreadsheet tells you what the mash pH will be based on the inputs provided.  i kind of doubt you are asking this but just in case.

Edited by TheGuv, 12 December 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

Mine either. Our waters are actually pretty similar.

[positiveContact]

so something odd i'm seeing, i just changed the bru'n water spreadsheet so that i added no salts and it's still saying i'll hit a mash pH of 5.4.  how can that be?

[MtnBrewer]

so something odd i'm seeing, i just changed the bru'n water spreadsheet so that i added no salts and it's still saying i'll hit a mash pH of 5.4.  how can that be?

Roasted malt lowers the pH.I get 5.3 when I do that but maybe my volume is different.

[positiveContact]

Roasted malt lowers the pH.

 

well that explains a big difference right there.  the kaiser spreadsheet has me starting at a pH of 4.9 with no additions.  he's predicting a much bigger drop in pH from the grainbill.

Edited by TheGuv, 12 December 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

Yeah, that probably explains everything.

[positiveContact]

Yeah, that probably explains everything.

 

so who do i believe???? 

[MtnBrewer]

so who do i believe???? 

Figured that would be the next question. I honestly don't know. Neither spreadsheet shows their calculations so it's hard to say which is right. Kai at least talks about his calculation here: https://braukaiser.c...ity_and_mash_pHI'll say this though. I have a hard time believing that you have to use 27g of baking soda without even adding any calcium.

[Big Nake]

I know I'm not helping but what I have been doing is using EZ_Water and getting myself into the neighborhood pH-wise. Then my meter and lactic acid get me the rest of the way there... which is minimal. No spreadsheet is going to know exactly what is going to happen in your mash (although I know that Bru'N'Water gets many people very close) so I just get in the zip code (which means I'll be slightly high) and then take care of the rest after a meter reading. I admit that I like to keep things simple and try to learn from past batches, etc. and I also realize this is no help to TheGuv. Sorry Guv.

[neddles]

so who do i believe???? 

Dunno, that's tough. I just switched from the strips (which were working fine until I realized they were being too ambiguous) to a pH meter. I have done one beer with the pH meter. It was a dark amber (15.4 SRM) beer and I adjusted that batch in BrunWater adding baking soda in very small increments until the predicted pH switched from 5.3 to 5.4. Mashed it and my just calibrated pH meter told me 5.36. I thought that was pretty damn close. Probably not going to be that close on every batch but… Anyhow, I also agree with MTN... without even adjusting your calcium 27g of sodium bicarb just seems like a ton.

[Brauer]

Yeah, that's a lot of bicarbonate. Try Kai's brewersfriend advanced water calculator, select "mash additions only", choose the option to enter the grist bill, instead of the color (to improve the prediction). Make sure you hit "update calculation" when you make changes.It's pretty simple to use, you can ignore a lot of sections if you don't need them, and is kept up to date with his latest data.I threw your recipe in quickly with RO water and it doesn't look like you would need much bicarbonate. By the way, if there is little SO4, I don't worry about Na and Cl until I go above 70 ppm in a strong malty beer like this.

[positiveContact]

Yeah, that's a lot of bicarbonate. Try Kai's brewersfriend advanced water calculator, select "mash additions only", choose the option to enter the grist bill, instead of the color (to improve the prediction). Make sure you hit "update calculation" when you make changes.It's pretty simple to use, you can ignore a lot of sections if you don't need them, and is kept up to date with his latest data.I threw your recipe in quickly with RO water and it doesn't look like you would need much bicarbonate. By the way, if there is little SO4, I don't worry about Na and Cl until I go above 70 ppm in a strong malty beer like this.

 

so brewers friend agrees much more closely with bru'n water.  no additions lands me at 5.53.  that makes me feel a lot better.

 

so is brewers friend free if i make an account?  seems like it is pretty easy to use.  i made an account but i don't see anything asking me to pay.

Edited by TheGuv, 13 December 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[positiveContact]

so i went back and loaded denny's ripa into the recipe maker and checked the water.  this calculator is saying i need to add over 50g of gypsum just to get under 5.4!!!  that also seems outrageous.  my experience tells me that i don't need to add nearly as much gypsum to this grain bill to hit 5.3ish.

[positiveContact]

so far as i can tell i think kai's spreadsheet does pretty well until you get into the really dark roasted grains.  i just put in denny's RIPA into bru'n water and adding the 15g of gypsum that i normally add to the mash landed me right at 5.3 like i would with kais spreadsheet.

 

brewers friend has some issues as well i think.  overall bru'n water seems to be the winner.

Edited by TheGuv, 13 December 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[denny]

well first and foremost i shoot for the right pH.  that's easy enough.  after that i look to make sure my calcium is high enough.  if i'm making a hoppy beer i might make sure the sulfate levels are up there as well.  for most other beers i'm looking to make the minimum change possible.  at the very least it keeps a record of what i did and if i like the results i can replicate it.  if something seemed off i could ask if this or that aspect of the final composition should be higher or lower to get me the results i'd like.  i don't really try to match water profiles of brewing regions or anything.

 

You HAVE to put in a target profile. 

[positiveContact]

You HAVE to put in a target profile. 

 

on which spreadsheet/tool are you talking about?  bru'n water, kai's spreadsheet, or the kai inspired brewers friend online tool?

[neddles]

You HAVE to put in a target profile. 

Why is it that you "HAVE" to use them? For the most part I ignore the profiles in BrunWater. I will look at them for rough guidance. That, and I frequently review the water knowledge section. But mostly I adjust for correct pH and then get the various ions to where I would like them, or think I would like them.

[positiveContact]

Why is it that you "HAVE" to use them? For the most part I ignore the profiles in BrunWater. I will look at them for rough guidance. That, and I frequently review the water knowledge section. But mostly I adjust for correct pH and then get the various ions to where I would like them, or think I would like them.

 

that's been my MO as well.

[denny]

on which spreadsheet/tool are you talking about?  bru'n water, kai's spreadsheet, or the kai inspired brewers friend online tool?

 

Bru'nwater.

[denny]

Why is it that you "HAVE" to use them? For the most part I ignore the profiles in BrunWater. I will look at them for rough guidance. That, and I frequently review the water knowledge section. But mostly I adjust for correct pH and then get the various ions to where I would like them, or think I would like them.

 

IMO, how do you know when you get there if you don't know where you're going?  What you're doing with the "flavor" additions by guessing, I do by shooting for the targets Martin provides.