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Finally got Dank/Resiny Mouthfeel

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#1 Steve Urquell

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:58 AM

I don't know if any of you use this technique, but I have really increased what I get out of my late-addition hops. I've been chasing the mouth-coating resinous feel you get from hoppy commercial IPAs for awhile. I tried adding more and more late hops, different types, increased sulfate, covering the brewpot after the flameout addition for 20 mins etc. but could never get much hop flavor or aroma until after the dry hop. I just looked at one of my old brews and it had 5 ozs of hops from 30 mins to 0 mins (7gal batch). That beer didn't have the resin (ever) or a whole lot of hop flavor/aroma until after the dry hop.I tried something I saw on HBT awhile ago on a 7gal batch of hoppy amber brewed on Aug 5th. Stopped chilling at 175F and added my late addition hops (1.5 oz ea of simcoe and citra), whirlpooled for 15 mins, and then resumed chilling. Holy crap! This sucker is as resiny as hell! Tons of hop flavor and aroma and that mouth-coating I've been chasing. This was with my old 2010 hops too.Folks at my other forum have started doing it too and are reporting the same results--tons more flavor and aroma than a hot flameout addition.Here's the science behind it:Adding hops late in the whirlpool results in lower isomerization of alpha acids and good uptake of hop oils and flavor components: about 15% in whirlpool versus 35% in the kettleIf you throw hops into the whirlpool and then take two hours to cool, you will not get the effect you are looking for. We throw our late hops into the whirlpool at the last possible moment and then cool and transfer to the fermenter as quickly as possible.Sitting at near boiling will continue to isomerize the hop acids and drive off the volatile oils that good hop aroma and flavor depend upon. A number of folks have noticed that hop aroma decreases on switching from an immersion chiller to a counter flow This is the reason. By contrast the whirlpool immersion chiller knocks enough heat off of the entire wort in the first minute or two to retain that beautiful hop character. If you're going to use a counter flow or plate chiller, better buy yourself a hopback.Source: https://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php
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#2 djinkc

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:41 PM

This has been a pleasant change around here lately. Been hitting the hops hard the last 20 - 15 minutes plus a healthy whirlpool addition. Blktre got me off my butt to start doing this again.
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#3 ER Pemberton

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

I have an amber ale on tap right now and I was hoping to get a bigger hop flavor and aroma and I'm dissappointed. Lots of late Mt. Hood and Liberty and then a 2-week dry hop with more Mt. Hood. I'm considering adding a bag of hops to the keg. So what you're saying is... start the whirlpool/chilling process and go from 212° to 175°, add hops & whirlpool (the chilling stops for this process) for 15 mins and then resume chilling. Yes? Interesting. I have a couple of beers coming up where this could come in handy.
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#4 Steve Urquell

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:53 PM

... start the whirlpool/chilling process and go from 212° to 175°, add hops & whirlpool (the chilling stops for this process) for 15 mins and then resume chilling.

You got it. That small temp drop from boiling to 175F allows less aromatics to be lost. This beer is the first hoppy beer that I was on the fence about dry hopping. It had a ton of hop flavor right after fermentation. I only dry hopped this one to get a little more aroma.I won't ever add another 0 min addition again without chilling to <180F.
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#5 ER Pemberton

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:04 PM

Very interesting. I have heard that late hops do not take the place of dry hops and vice-versa. I wonder where this falls into that equation. Screw the flameout addition and do this temp-drop first and call it a "whirlpool" addition? Then what about dry hops? Still add them? Does the whirlpool addition act more like a dry hop, a late hop or neither one? Hooray for more tools in the toolbox!
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#6 Steve Urquell

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:13 PM

Very interesting. I have heard that late hops do not take the place of dry hops and vice-versa. I wonder where this falls into that equation. Screw the flameout addition and do this temp-drop first and call it a "whirlpool" addition? Then what about dry hops? Still add them? Does the whirlpool addition act more like a dry hop, a late hop or neither one? Hooray for more tools in the toolbox!

Like you reported with your amber ale, I never got much from my 0 min additions. This really added the flavor I was missing. As far as dry hops go--I really debated whether to add any to this batch. Afraid it would be too much for an amber. Right now it is intense but I know it will calm down. I'd say, at the end of fermentation, take a sample, taste, and then decide if you need more flavor. I think the flavor is more like a dry hop addition.
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#7 JMcG

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:58 PM

I usually like to get the wort down under 140dF to cut DMS, but I've been waiting to add the last hops until the wort has chilled for a minute or two (IC) and then continue to chill after the addition. It takes only one or two more minutes to get under 140 and then I keep chilling (slower, due to water temps, about ten min) until the wort hits 100 (no HSA). Lots of hop aroma and flavor. I'm thinking I might have to slow down the later part of the chill a little when the ground water temp drops in a few weeks.
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#8 Mindblock

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:08 PM

This is great information!! I have a CFC and whenever I use orange blossom honey and want to retain a bit of the flavor, I have pumped through the CFC back to the brew kettle and added the honey at ~180F in the BK.....I will have to try a similar technique with hops after reading this.....Thanks again for sharing.
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#9 shmgeggie

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:27 PM

Nice suggestion. I will definitely try this.
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#10 djinkc

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:58 PM

This is interesting. I went back to the CFC so I could whirlpool with pellets. Just could not get a cone with the IC (cold break). I may try knocking it down a bit with the CFC and then add the flameout but if it affects the cone I'll have to bail on it.
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#11 BlKtRe

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:05 PM

I'd like to add something. I've always used a cfc or plate. I have always just waited 10 minutes or so after flameout before adding the aroma hops. Whirlpool, flameout whatever you want to call it. Then start my inline chilling by allowing the hops to sit in the wort until chilling is done. Over the years I used my homemade hop back then bought the hop rocket when it came out. My IpA's have always had a killer aroma with very little difference with the use of the hop back vs adding them to the kettle. So Im not really buying into the part that says inline chilling needs a hop back to get the same aroma as whirlpooling. Now if he said time in the kettle and temp of wort are the critical factors and not chilling method I'd buy into it.

Edited by BlKtRe, 07 September 2012 - 05:07 PM.

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#12 Steve Urquell

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 05:26 PM

He was more talking about adding hop additions while the majority of the wort was still at boiling temp. That quoted stuff wasnt talking about this exact technique, it was just something I found that related. So you are right. It is all about temp of wort and time in the kettle.
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#13 Brauer

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:38 PM

This is interesting. I went back to the CFC so I could whirlpool with pellets. Just could not get a cone with the IC (cold break). I may try knocking it down a bit with the CFC and then add the flameout but if it affects the cone I'll have to bail on it.

Would you really avoid a technique that gave better flavor, just because it decreased the quality of your hop cone?
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#14 BlKtRe

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

Would you really avoid a technique that gave better flavor, just because it decreased the quality of your hop cone?

Debatable.
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#15 Brauer

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:15 AM

Debatable.

I don't understand, it's debatable if he would use a technique that improved flavor if it decreased the quality of the hop cone?
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#16 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:10 AM

I don't understand, it's debatable if he would use a technique that improved flavor if it decreased the quality of the hop cone?

My point was that if he gets the wort down in temp by any method before adding hops this will increase hop flavor aroma. Whirlpooling is just one way to do it. If Dan can find another way to do it without whirlpooling or messing up his trub cone then the results will be the same. Its all about time and temp in the kettle. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Edited by BlKtRe, 08 September 2012 - 06:11 AM.

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#17 Brauer

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:42 AM

Thanks, I get it now. There's more than one way to do the same thing.
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#18 Steve Urquell

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:46 AM

The guy I learned this technique from said that just putting the hops in at the lower temp will have the same effect as whirlpooling.Some whirlpool, some don't. It just felt right to me to do it so I did.
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#19 ER Pemberton

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

I'm doing it! :lol:
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#20 al_bob

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

I'm very interested in this technique, since I always felt my flameout additions, weren't giving my bang for the buck. Thanks.
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