313 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

In the case of beer, isn't taste the ultimate concrete measure?
(Hah! "case of beer"!)

 

I meant to reply to this before but I agree. 

[Big Nake]

Last night I read back through the paper and laid some things out to make one batch like this. In true KEN fashion, it won't be overly technical and that's mostly because I'm not overly technical. So I would boil my mash water and chill it with a new 25' SS chiller. I would add 1.7g of SMB (based on the calcs in the paper). I would add the freshly-milled grains to the tun and then rack the water from the pot to the tun trying to get the hose under the grain and rack quietly. This brings up the question of whether standard homebrewers plastic/vinyl tubing should be used for 160° water. If not, I see they make some HI-TEMP tubing that I could pick up. Then stir gently. Not sure what to do on the recirc and runoff yet. Do the same thing for the sparge water. Boil gently. Chill with SS chiller and stir gently. Rack from kettle to primary with as little splashing as possible. Pitch yeast. Add pure O2. Ferment. Rack to CO2-purged keg with some amount of fermentation yet to go and connect spunding valve (which I need to make or buy). DO meters are not cheap. The cheapest one I saw was around $120 on Amazon and I'm not willing to go there yet. It's very possible that my approach allows too much O2 into the equation and will result in a beer very similar to what I do now. I will admit that when I stir my mash now, I stir vigorously. I splash my mash and sparge water into my tun pretty violently. I stir my chilling wort to a froth (when it's under 100°) and I splash the wort from kettle to primary through a strainer. So there are A LOT of spots in my process where I could cut down on O2.

[positiveContact]

I use silicon tubing to drain my HLT.  I like to use it for a lot of things b/c it can take a lot of heat which means I can clean it with boiling hot water if I want to.

[HVB]

What DO meter was 120?  I have looked and have not seen any lower that 160ish.  That was a Milwaukee and not on Amazon.

 

What about BIAB for this you would have all your water in teh kettle and could boil and cool in the pot and not have to move it.  Then you can gently lower your grain in the bag into the water.  No sparge or transfers to worry about.

I use silicon tubing to drain my HLT.  I like to use it for a lot of things b/c it can take a lot of heat which means I can clean it with boiling hot water if I want to.

Heck, I use silicone tubing to transfer from my fermetner to keg.  I use that stuff for blowoff tubes, I use it for everything!

[positiveContact]

What about BIAB for this you would have all your water in teh kettle and could boil and cool in the pot and not have to move it.  Then you can gently lower your grain in the bag into the water.  No sparge or transfers to worry about.

 

what about when you drain the bag though?  doesn't it drip a lot?  it seems like that might introduce O2.

[HVB]

what about when you drain the bag though?  doesn't it drip a lot?  it seems like that might introduce O2.

Damn you for that.  Yeah, I completely overlooked that part.  My bad, off to finish my coffee!!

[positiveContact]

Damn you for that.  Yeah, I completely overlooked that part.  My bad, off to finish my coffee!!

 

just make a chamber you can pull a vacuum on to brew in.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

eta:  you'll def need to go electric for this to work.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 28 April 2016 - 06:30 AM.

[Big Nake]

I know nothing about BIAB or its other impacts (lower efficiency?) but that's a thought.

Is the silicone tubing the one with the criss-cross pattern on it and it looks to be slightly thicker? I just saw some of that stuff on Williams or MoreBeer last night. I could grab that and maybe order the SMB at the same time. I may also check to see if the hi-temp tubing is available locally and just go pick it up. If this happens to make a nice difference, the next step for me would be to make a nice pale ale with some late "American nobles" like Crystal, Santiam, Liberty, etc. and do some late hopping and see if the LODO approach improves that style. I make A LOT of German styles but I still like my pale ales, bitters, reds, etc. and they could get a boost too.

[positiveContact]

mine is kind of a milky white color until it stains a little from wort.  you can see the wort inside but not clearly.

 

looks like this: httpss://www.brewershardware.com/Silicone-Hose-1-2.html

 

[HVB]

I know nothing about BIAB or its other impacts (lower efficiency?) but that's a thought.
 

I actually get better efficiency with it strangely - 80 and 81% on the last few beers.

mine is kind of a milky white color until it stains a little from wort.  you can see the wort inside but not clearly.

 

looks like this: httpss://www.brewershardware.com/Silicone-Hose-1-2.html

 

same stuff I have

 

[Brauer]

my mistake, they say to do it just after pitching the yeast.  I've always done it just before (as in immediately prior) b/c I was concerned with the pure O2 not being good for the yeast until it has gone into solution.

 

The yeast should be well mixed into the wort, and oxygen

or sterile air added only after pitching, with a target DO level of approximately

8 ppm [4].

I'm not sure how much it would matter. If you add oxygen to wort+yeast, it will take ~30 minutes for the oxygen to be consumed. If you take 5 minutes to add your yeast to oxygenated wort, then it will take ~35 minutes. I suppose the additional 5 minutes is at the higher concentration...

 

By the way, if you aerate, instead of oxygenate, the oxygen will tend to plateau right around 8 ppm. Pure oxygen can briefly supersaturate it to 20+ ppm

[positiveContact]

I'm not sure how much it would matter. If you add oxygen to wort+yeast, it will take ~30 minutes for the oxygen to be consumed. If you take 5 minutes to add your yeast to oxygenated wort, then it will take ~35 minutes. I suppose the additional 5 minutes is at the higher concentration...

 

By the way, if you aerate, instead of oxygenate, the oxygen will tend to plateau right around 8 ppm. Pure oxygen can briefly supersaturate it to 20+ ppm

 

I tend to err on the side of less when I'm using my O2 stone.  about 1 min @ 2-3 LPM (10-11 gals of wort).  or maybe I'm not?  this is one of those, "just do what I've always done" kind of things since I don't have a way to measure what I'm accomplishing.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 28 April 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Big Nake]

I also just realized that the spunding valve is a way to carbonate. I thought it was basically just an airlock for a keg (which it is but it's more than that). So the idea of moving the beer to the keg while it's still fermenting is important because you're going to naturally carbonate now which will also help to drive off O2. You also don't have to be super-exact (I'm spitballing here) because the spunding valve will bleed off if the pressure gets higher than you set it. So that part is new to me and very interesting. I thought I would still force-carb with CO2 without issue but no. Do I have that right?

[positiveContact]

I also just realized that the spunding valve is a way to carbonate. I thought it was basically just an airlock for a keg (which it is but it's more than that). So the idea of moving the beer to the keg while it's still fermenting is important because you're going to naturally carbonate now which will also help to drive off O2. You also don't have to be super-exact (I'm spitballing here) because the spunding valve will bleed off if the pressure gets higher than you set it. So that part is new to me and very interesting. I thought I would still force-carb with CO2 without issue but no. Do I have that right?

 

you've got it all right there.  I think you would still need to charge the headspace with some CO2 to get the lid to seal up until the yeast pressurizes it some more.  as I said earlier, this is something I've considered on occasion as a way to avoid oxidizing my beer after fermentation (I personally suspect this is the most important time to avoid O2).  but how do you handle trub/yeast/hop matter still floating around?  now it's all in the bottom of your keg!

Edited by Evil_Morty, 28 April 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[Big Nake]

I think it's important to get as little schputz into the primary as possible. Chils does this already but I'm not sure the LODO process likes his waiting until the next day for things to settle. There will be adjustments and trade-offs no matter what. I expect that when I send the beer from primary to keg, I'm going to get some schputz in the keg and that eventually that schputz will settle and come out on the first cruddy pint (and second, third maybe) and then you'll be fine. I also envision no spot where gel could be added so I will be at a loss there too... every batch of mine gets gel and I suppose I could still do it way after primary is done and the keg is just sitting there weeks or months after brewday.

[neddles]

I know nothing about BIAB or its other impacts (lower efficiency?) but that's a thought.

 

I actually get better efficiency with it strangely - 80 and 81% on the last few beers.

 

 

Drez, good to see you're getting better efficiency.

 

It's a sliding scale based on gravity/amount of grain involved. Ken, if your actually interested it would be pretty efficient at your typical gravity. From a recent lager I made.

 

6 gallons post boil

9.38# of malt

OG-1.048 

84.5% Efficiency into the kettle.

[neddles]

 

Is that hose just secured by a barbed fitting on both ends?

[HVB]

Is that hose just secured by a barbed fitting on both ends?

Yes,  3/8 house with  3/8 flare fittings.  Works slick for my application.

[Brauer]

I tend to err on the side of less when I'm using my O2 stone.  about 1 min @ 2-3 LPM (10-11 gals of wort).  or maybe I'm not?  this is one of those, "just do what I've always done" kind of things since I don't have a way to measure what I'm accomplishing.

This is one place where a DO meter might be useful. You can estimate the final by using a flow meter and some math (I might have an extra one), which seems to be common practice in breweries.

 

I don't think a DO meter is going to help during most of the mashing & brewing process, though, because they most of them don't work above 120°F.

 

Ken, you mention 160°F water into the mash. You may need to increase your strike water temperature if you run through tubing, because there will probably be more heat loss. I would use silicone tubing for strike water, that is a little high for vinyl. Thick-walled silicone is going to be less apt to kink, if you can find that.

[denny]

My guess is that Marshall will grab this and do an exbeeriment. These things take time and the information was just made available so I don't expect to see the results of this quickly. Marshall may have to make some adjustments to his system too. But with 19 pages of gibberish over at AHA and 8 pages over here, there is clearly conversation about this even if it revolves around the people instead of the idea. I expect Marshall to do a test and report his findings. It would be great to see because his reporting is usually very good.

 

Marshall, Annie Johnson and I are working on it.