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Any of you guys in the FB German Brewing group see the latest?


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#141 Steve Urquell

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 04:32 PM

That's good to know and one piece of what I will start looking at. I keep thinking that there must be a way to tackle some of these issues but there are so many stops along the way where you stir, transfer, etc. and that part will be tricky for me. Chils, how do you chill? (that should be on a t-shirt or something)... with an IC? If so, do you stir? When I transfer from kettle to primary, should I skip the strainer and splashing? Sounds like it.

SS IC and stir gently after temp drops. I do stir when doing the 175f whirlpool. I dump everything into primary literally pouring from chair height. Rack off the trub the next day when the drauflassen starter is ready.

Dry hops go into primary. Gel in the keg. Ken I brewed Czech pils for years and never thought it was as good as PU. My Svetly recipe using the good bag of floor malt, fresh leaf saaz and M-84 yeast is better tasting than it to me. I think Neddles got one of the last 2 pints on a 9mth old keg of a variant I thought was 80% as good as my original recipe and it was still good. the

I felt that that beer had the "it" I had been missing in my Czech beers. Only took me 40 or so batches of Czech pils go get there. :)

#142 cavman

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 04:33 PM

So if you got some good information, you would discount it just because of who gave it to you?

if someone gave these guys good info but it was considered American Homebrewing Dogma by them they clearly would. This is not a group of open minded folks based on those rules. They have an agenda and a don't even deny it.

#143 Big Nake

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 05:11 PM

if someone gave these guys good info but it was considered American Homebrewing Dogma by them they clearly would. This is not a group of open minded folks based on those rules. They have an agenda and a don't even deny it.

That's fine but again, I'm not interested in them, just the information and whether it makes better beer. I'm really only in contact with one person in that group and he has always been great when we have talked. I pretty much forget about anyone in the group that can't seem to get along with others.

#144 cavman

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 05:24 PM

That's fine but again, I'm not interested in them, just the information and whether it makes better beer. I'm really only in contact with one person in that group and he has always been great when we have talked. I pretty much forget about anyone in the group that can't seem to get along with others.


Nothing wrong with learning, but this seems to be a case of where someone decided beforehand that something would work and now are claiming to be correct but not willing to back it up. As Morty said earlier seems to be the opposite of people like the Brulosophy guy, maybe he should do this.

#145 neddles

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:05 PM

I think Neddles got one of the last 2 pints on a 9mth old keg of a variant I thought was 80% as good as my original recipe and it was still good. 

Truth. That beer was yummy. When you told me that beer was 9 months old I was like  :shock:

 

A little while back Drez sent me a bottle of his Smokey Brown that was like a year-ish old IIRC and that beer was also amazingly fresh and delicious.

 

I haven't kept any beers that long... I can only hope they would be as good as those two examples.



#146 Big Nake

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:12 PM

Nothing wrong with learning, but this seems to be a case of where someone decided beforehand that something would work and now are claiming to be correct but not willing to back it up. As Morty said earlier seems to be the opposite of people like the Brulosophy guy, maybe he should do this.

My guess is that Marshall will grab this and do an exbeeriment. These things take time and the information was just made available so I don't expect to see the results of this quickly. Marshall may have to make some adjustments to his system too. But with 19 pages of gibberish over at AHA and 8 pages over here, there is clearly conversation about this even if it revolves around the people instead of the idea. I expect Marshall to do a test and report his findings. It would be great to see because his reporting is usually very good.

#147 Mynameisluka

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:43 PM

Oxidation alters many flavor/aroma compounds...it only makes sense that brewing in a very low O2 environment would produce different results. I just highly doubt if O2 levels can really be  controlled throughout the process well enough to really impact the final product...a final product that is rapidly going to oxidize as soon as it is opened and poured.



#148 HVB

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:03 PM

Truth. That beer was yummy. When you told me that beer was 9 months old I was like :shock: .

A little while back Drez sent me a bottle of his Smokey Brown that was like a year-ish old IIRC and that beer was also amazingly fresh and delicious.

I haven't kept any beers that long... I can only hope they would be as good as those two examples.


Yup, it was just shy of a year old when you got it.

#149 Mya

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:05 PM

Yup, it was just shy of a year old when you got it.

bottle conditioned?



#150 cavman

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:20 PM

My guess is that Marshall will grab this and do an exbeeriment. These things take time and the information was just made available so I don't expect to see the results of this quickly. Marshall may have to make some adjustments to his system too. But with 19 pages of gibberish over at AHA and 8 pages over here, there is clearly conversation about this even if it revolves around the people instead of the idea. I expect Marshall to do a test and report his findings. It would be great to see because his reporting is usually very good.

Considering they are using Fix and other older brewing texts to support their claims it is not just available now, but I agree it may not have been something on the radar. I hope it does go through the tests, I think we all believe fresh ingredients makes a better beer and at the core this is what they are saying.

ETA: I drink too much for that last part to be an issue

Edited by cavman, 27 April 2016 - 07:21 PM.


#151 No Party JKor

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 08:49 PM

Well, I'm perfectly happy to profit from the work of others, even if the others are douchecanoes.  :)

 

 

I quickly read through the thread, so forgive me if this has been stated.  An interesting aspect of this is that (IMO) large-scale brewing is naturally going to have less DO than typical homebrewing, purely based on the volume of liquid being handled and the more controlled methodology for transfers.  What I mean is that you will generally have less surface area per volume in the larger scale systems.  I haven't read the paper, so I don't know how far they are going with this, but maybe they could be on to something.  I'm open to checking it out.

 

It would definitely be great to see some blind tasting and a little more validation of the work.  I think the Brulosophy stuff has been great and what they are doing is really raising the standard in the community, but I would also caution that there's a difference between perceiving something to be different and something *actually* being different.  Those guys (Brulosophers) have, rightly, gotten a ton of cred for what they've done, but it's still statistical methodology.  When you really get down into the fine tuning stage you could be better served by going with analytical methods.  Or using analytical to supplement, anyway.  Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I've personally been a little leery of people regurgitating the exbeeriment results by saying "there's no difference!", when it's actually "there's no statistical difference in a small to medium sized blind tasting!".  Those two statements could, in reality, be vastly different.  /rant

 

Anyway...really looking forward to seeing where this goes!


Edited by JKor, 27 April 2016 - 08:50 PM.


#152 HVB

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:22 AM

bottle conditioned?


No,keg. I filled it from the keg a few days before sending. I have not bottle conditioned a beer since the early 2000's.

#153 positiveContact

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:02 AM

Well, I'm perfectly happy to profit from the work of others, even if the others are douchecanoes.  :)

 

 

I quickly read through the thread, so forgive me if this has been stated.  An interesting aspect of this is that (IMO) large-scale brewing is naturally going to have less DO than typical homebrewing, purely based on the volume of liquid being handled and the more controlled methodology for transfers.  What I mean is that you will generally have less surface area per volume in the larger scale systems.  I haven't read the paper, so I don't know how far they are going with this, but maybe they could be on to something.  I'm open to checking it out.

 

It would definitely be great to see some blind tasting and a little more validation of the work.  I think the Brulosophy stuff has been great and what they are doing is really raising the standard in the community, but I would also caution that there's a difference between perceiving something to be different and something *actually* being different.  Those guys (Brulosophers) have, rightly, gotten a ton of cred for what they've done, but it's still statistical methodology.  When you really get down into the fine tuning stage you could be better served by going with analytical methods.  Or using analytical to supplement, anyway.  Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I've personally been a little leery of people regurgitating the exbeeriment results by saying "there's no difference!", when it's actually "there's no statistical difference in a small to medium sized blind tasting!".  Those two statements could, in reality, be vastly different.  /rant

 

Anyway...really looking forward to seeing where this goes!

 

analytical poorly done is just as bad if not worse than statistical.  it would also require knowing what actually matters and what doesn't.



#154 Brauer

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:08 AM

That's fine but again, I'm not interested in them, just the information and whether it makes better beer. I'm really only in contact with one person in that group and he has always been great when we have talked. I pretty much forget about anyone in the group that can't seem to get along with others.

There are potentially useful techniques listed in that essay. Too much churning of hot wort has been seen, after some level, to affect beer stability. That's relatively easy to implement.

Preboiling water is easy, and it doesn't take a lot of time since you don't need to watch water boil. I'm skeptical that the water needs to be brought to a full boil or that it needs to be chilled rapidly. I' m not sure how they determined that, since it is above the range of most dissolved oxygen meters, so I suspect it is a guess (I'll need to check the refs).

There is so much oxygen in the malt, I'm a little doubtful that filling from the bottom or covering the mash would matter, but it is not an unreasonable assumption if you get a lot of churning. So that might be worth testing, if you can engineer a solution.

Could it matter if you splash into the fermentor? You need to aerate for fermentation, right? I suppose you could over pitch to attempt to remove the need to aerate.

Cold transfers are the infamous sources of oxidation. Remove the secondary, engineer a closed transfer to a purged keg, and even consider natural carbonation of the keg (you can always use that as your clearing step, then jump to a new keg.) I naturally carbonate. You don't even need to add that much sugar, if all you want to do is scavenge oxygen.

I think the metabisulfate addition is highly theoretical, hasn't stood up to testing in the past, and clearly isn't being done by German breweries. It's not something I would consider trying, but it would be easy to implement. That's a lot of metabisulfate, though, but there is a good chance they are just tasting the effect of the sodium, so I might consider salt, instead. That said, small metabisulfate additions to you water is an effective way, possibly the most effective way, to remove chlorine, another oxidizer.

Sorry if I was overly negative before, but I was very put off by the attempt to make this appear to be a scientific analysis, when it is really an essay similar to something you might write as a proposal to get approval to run the actual experiment where you include data collection. I know you aren't a scientist, and it doesn't appear that these guys are, but it is difficult for me to look at something like this in any way other than as a scientist. I'm trying now to look at the suggestions on face value and not trying to peer-review the work.

#155 positiveContact

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:21 AM

they say to aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast.



#156 Brauer

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:26 AM

analytical poorly done is just as bad if not worse than statistical. it would also require knowing what actually matters and what doesn't.

Even good analytical measurements might not have real world significance. In addition, they still require statistical analysis to determine if they are significantly different between conditions. You really can't escape statistics if you are trying to determine if two processes are actually different.

Also, in my work, we can often measure things at much more sensitive levels than would really be relevant. It can be difficult, then, to determine if what you measure is relevant. That can often take more research to determine what matters. In the end, we try to look for concrete measures that support the analytical measurements. If we can't find those, then the measurements may not be indicative. In the case of beer, isn't taste the ultimate concrete measure?
(Hah! "case of beer"!)

they say to aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast.

So you can splash all you want into the fermentor, then, I guess. I think that was one of Ken's concerns.

#157 positiveContact

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:16 AM

they say to aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast.

 

my mistake, they say to do it just after pitching the yeast.  I've always done it just before (as in immediately prior) b/c I was concerned with the pure O2 not being good for the yeast until it has gone into solution.

 

The yeast should be well mixed into the wort, and oxygen

or sterile air added only after pitching, with a target DO level of approximately

8 ppm [4].



#158 HVB

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:40 AM

Ken,  I am sure you have seen the mini-mash test on their forum.  Have you thought about trying it?



#159 Big Nake

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:51 AM

they say to aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast.

After, right.
 

Ken,  I am sure you have seen the mini-mash test on their forum.  Have you thought about trying it?

No because it sounds like a lot of work for nothing. I would rather implement some of these processes and make a full 5-gallon batch.

#160 HVB

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 05:58 AM

After, right.
 
No because it sounds like a lot of work for nothing. I would rather implement some of these processes and make a full 5-gallon batch.

I see.




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