313 replies to this topic

[denny]

my mistake, they say to do it just after pitching the yeast.  I've always done it just before (as in immediately prior) b/c I was concerned with the pure O2 not being good for the yeast until it has gone into solution.

 

The yeast should be well mixed into the wort, and oxygen

or sterile air added only after pitching, with a target DO level of approximately

8 ppm [4].

 

I've done it both ways and it makes no difference whatsoever.  Remember, we're talking about a difference of seconds or minutes.

[Big Nake]

Ken, you mention 160°F water into the mash. You may need to increase your strike water temperature if you run through tubing, because there will probably be more heat loss. I would use silicone tubing for strike water, that is a little high for vinyl. Thick-walled silicone is going to be less apt to kink, if you can find that.

Sounds reasonable. I heat to around 160°F when I pour my water directly onto my grains in the MT. That's slightly high (the mash temp starts around 152ish) on purpose so I can have some time to make pH adjustments to the mash. After that's done, I stir a little and usually end up around 150° where I want it. I'll go a smidge higher with the racking as a part of the equation and I'll look for the thick-walled silicone tubing. Thanks Brauer.

One other thing I overlooked... my water. The paper says to use RO water. I wonder if I could cut my water 50% with distilled and then just manage it from there. There will be additional sodium and sulfate in the water because of the SMB. The paper also said to add CaCl to get calcium to 50-60ppm which is normal for me anyway because my Ca is only 34 which would fall to 17 it I cut the water. So cut it, add CaCl and lactic acid to neutralize the bicarb, boil, chill to strike temp, add SMB and rack it to the tun. I'm shaking my head a little envisioning all of this.

[Big Nake]

Guys: Help set me straight on something else... I have mentioned already that I have splashed and aerated my way through many batches of beer. Many of my recent beers (last 2-3 years), I have been very happy with and I'm talking all beer styles. The paper has a sort of "all or nothing" feel to it which I do not doubt but I do question my ability to keep O2 under that kind of control. Does anyone think that there is any midway point in this? IOW, if I take some of these steps and reduce O2 but not as much as the paper suggests, is there a benefit? Will I see any improvement in the beer if I reduce my O2 by say... 75%? Just thinking out loud.

[neddles]

Guys: Help set me straight on something else... I have mentioned already that I have splashed and aerated my way through many batches of beer. Many of my recent beers (last 2-3 years), I have been very happy with and I'm talking all beer styles. The paper has a sort of "all or nothing" feel to it which I do not doubt but I do question my ability to keep O2 under that kind of control. Does anyone think that there is any midway point in this? IOW, if I take some of these steps and reduce O2 but not as much as the paper suggests, is there a benefit? Will I see any improvement in the beer if I reduce my O2 by say... 75%? Just thinking out loud.

Honestly, I was kind of hoping you would go halfway and let us know!

[Brauer]

I also envision no spot where gel could be added so I will be at a loss there too... every batch of mine gets gel and I suppose I could still do it way after primary is done and the keg is just sitting there weeks or months after brewday.

It's common for cask ale brewers to add finings/gelatin to the cask at transfer. You could do the same, in the keg.

[Big Nake]

It's common for cask ale brewers to add finings/gelatin to the cask at transfer. You could do the same, in the keg.

Even if the transfer to the keg is when there is still active fermentation going on? Wouldn't that make the yeast settle before they were done or at least create that possibility? Just spitballing.

[denny]

Guys: Help set me straight on something else... I have mentioned already that I have splashed and aerated my way through many batches of beer. Many of my recent beers (last 2-3 years), I have been very happy with and I'm talking all beer styles. The paper has a sort of "all or nothing" feel to it which I do not doubt but I do question my ability to keep O2 under that kind of control. Does anyone think that there is any midway point in this? IOW, if I take some of these steps and reduce O2 but not as much as the paper suggests, is there a benefit? Will I see any improvement in the beer if I reduce my O2 by say... 75%? Just thinking out loud.

 

According to the paper, it's all or nothing.  One of many reasons it seems impractical.  Marshall, Annie and I are working with a food process person to see what we can find.  We will explore what the heavy sodium load of that much SMB does and whether it might be responsible for the flavor they're getting.

[Big Nake]

According to the paper, it's all or nothing.  One of many reasons it seems impractical.  Marshall, Annie and I are working with a food process person to see what we can find.  We will explore what the heavy sodium load of that much SMB does and whether it might be responsible for the flavor they're getting.

I have heard people say that some amount of sodium actually lends a sweetness to the beer and these guys have also mentioned that LODO beer tends to be sweeter. I'm I getting that right?

Also... it suggests that A LOT of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that a smidge of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that NO aeration will make the best beer. I'm saying that because it must not be on a scale because if it were, my beers would be HORRIBLE based on how much splashing I do. My beers could always improve, no question... but they're not horrible.

[HVB]

Guys: Help set me straight on something else... I have mentioned already that I have splashed and aerated my way through many batches of beer. Many of my recent beers (last 2-3 years), I have been very happy with and I'm talking all beer styles. The paper has a sort of "all or nothing" feel to it which I do not doubt but I do question my ability to keep O2 under that kind of control. Does anyone think that there is any midway point in this? IOW, if I take some of these steps and reduce O2 but not as much as the paper suggests, is there a benefit? Will I see any improvement in the beer if I reduce my O2 by say... 75%? Just thinking out loud.

I still say start here

 

https://www.brews-br...test/?p=2292808

[denny]

I have heard people say that some amount of sodium actually lends a sweetness to the beer and these guys have also mentioned that LODO beer tends to be sweeter. I'm I getting that right?

Also... it suggests that A LOT of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that a smidge of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that NO aeration will make the best beer. I'm saying that because it must not be on a scale because if it were, my beers would be HORRIBLE based on how much splashing I do. My beers could always improve, no question... but they're not horrible.

 

Yep, you're correct.  In general, Na accentuates malt.

I have heard people say that some amount of sodium actually lends a sweetness to the beer and these guys have also mentioned that LODO beer tends to be sweeter. I'm I getting that right?

Also... it suggests that A LOT of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that a smidge of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that NO aeration will make the best beer. I'm saying that because it must not be on a scale because if it were, my beers would be HORRIBLE based on how much splashing I do. My beers could always improve, no question... but they're not horrible.

 

I guess it depends on if you believe what they say or not.  As far as I've seen, they're saying you have to do everything or you won't get "IT".

[positiveContact]

I've done it both ways and it makes no difference whatsoever.  Remember, we're talking about a difference of seconds or minutes.

 

from an oxidation standpoint I would tend to agree.  how about from the perspective of exposing the yeast to that pure O2?

 

I have heard people say that some amount of sodium actually lends a sweetness to the beer and these guys have also mentioned that LODO beer tends to be sweeter. I'm I getting that right?

Also... it suggests that A LOT of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that a smidge of aeration will "just slightly" ruin your beer and that NO aeration will make the best beer. I'm saying that because it must not be on a scale because if it were, my beers would be HORRIBLE based on how much splashing I do. My beers could always improve, no question... but they're not horrible.

 

anyone have any idea how much kosher salt I could add to a pint to simulate the sodium amount?  I'll gladly test that out

 

eta:  I'm pretty sure I'm starting with 29 ppm of Na in my water.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 28 April 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[denny]

from an oxidation standpoint I would tend to agree.  how about from the perspective of exposing the yeast to that pure O2?

 

 

anyone have any idea how much kosher salt I could add to a pint to simulate the sodium amount?  I'll gladly test that out

 

eta:  I'm pretty sure I'm starting with 29 ppm of Na in my water.

 

The yeast don't care.  And keep in mind that I do virtually no aeration these days other than pumping wort into the fermenter.  We discussed that in the last podcast.

from an oxidation standpoint I would tend to agree.  how about from the perspective of exposing the yeast to that pure O2?

 

 

 

anyone have any idea how much kosher salt I could add to a pint to simulate the sodium amount?  I'll gladly test that out

 

eta:  I'm pretty sure I'm starting with 29 ppm of Na in my water.

 

According to Martin, max is about 75 ppm.  As far as I can see, their recommendation would add much more than that.

[positiveContact]

The yeast don't care.  And keep in mind that I do virtually no aeration these days other than pumping wort into the fermenter.  We discussed that in the last podcast.

 

I got interrupted before you said that I think.  I should go back and listen to the experiment part.

 

since my wort is travelling through a fairly large ID (1/2"?) tube down a vertical drop of about 9' I could also probably get away with no aeration.  I do skip additional aeration when using dry yeast.  on liquid I get nervous and still do it.  it's not too much work but once my O2 tank goes empty I may try some batches without.

[HVB]

I got interrupted before you said that I think.  I should go back and listen to the experiment part.

 

since my wort is travelling through a fairly large ID (1/2"?) tube down a vertical drop of about 9' I could also probably get away with no aeration.  I do skip additional aeration when using dry yeast.  on liquid I get nervous and still do it.  it's not too much work but once my O2 tank goes empty I may try some batches without.

i have not oxygenated a  batch for the last 6 months and I have not noticed a difference.  It was not on purpose but my local HD did not have the small tanks so I never got a replacement.  I did get one but have not used it yet.

[Big Nake]

Honestly, I was kind of hoping you would go halfway and let us know!

I'm going to try a sort of [predictably] half-assed version of this. My guess is that I will end up making a less-oxidized batch of beer that may or may not have the character we're trying to preserve. There is only so much I can do on my system and there is only so much I am willing to do. Maybe this process is something I'll only do for German beers or maybe just "gold lagers". Cheers peeps.

[positiveContact]

I'm going to try a sort of [predictably] half-assed version of this. My guess is that I will end up making a less-oxidized batch of beer that may or may not have the character we're trying to preserve. There is only so much I can do on my system and there is only so much I am willing to do. Maybe this process is something I'll only do for German beers or maybe just "gold lagers". Cheers peeps.

 

maybe try one thing at a time?  like drez said, avoiding O2 post fermentation seems like it's more important than during the mash.

[neddles]

i have not oxygenated a  batch for the last 6 months and I have not noticed a difference.  It was not on purpose but my local HD did not have the small tanks so I never got a replacement.  I did get one but have not used it yet.

So no issues with reuse of yeast? Maybe I am off on this but I thought the biggest downside of not using O2 was decreased yeast health for future ferments. Or maybe that's just American home brewer lore!

[positiveContact]

i have not oxygenated a  batch for the last 6 months and I have not noticed a difference.  It was not on purpose but my local HD did not have the small tanks so I never got a replacement.  I did get one but have not used it yet.

 

I had no idea!  I feel so deceived!

[HVB]

So no issues with reuse of yeast? Maybe I am off on this but I thought the biggest downside of not using O2 was decreased yeast health for future ferments. Or maybe that's just American home brewer lore!

 

I have not noticed any issues.

 

 

I had no idea!  I feel so deceived!

[Big Nake]

Looking around I can't seem to find a place that carries SMB, the high-temp tubing and the spunding valve (which is called something else like a ball-lock pressure gauge or something). Farmhouse has a good price on the SMB, MoreBeer has the spunding valve and someone else has the tubing. If anyone happens to go down that path and finds a good source for all of it in the same place, please post. Thanks gang.