59 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

To get an answer as to why overpitching the draulaussen starter doesn't produce off flavors in the final beer?

 

I don't know why but my N=1 with the technique produced a blonde lager with no detectable off flavors as far as I could tell.

 

what were the sizes of the total batch and the starter?

[positiveContact]

what I like about this method is the pitching of active and a lot of yeast into the wort.  what I don't like is that I'll either have to do a quick boil on the night of my mash (I overnight mash) or I have to wait until the following morning to pitch the yeast into my "starter" which would delay pitching the yeast into the rest of the batch.

[neddles]

what were the sizes of the total batch and the starter?

Total fermentation was 5.5gal and the starter was .75gal of that 5.5gal. I'm sure I was over pitching as the .75gal starter was pitched with the entire yeast cake from a 2.5 week old starter that was built to ferment the entire 5.5 by itself.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I'll be using this technique if we end up with 30bbl fermenters.

[neddles]

I'll be using this technique if we end up with 30bbl fermenters.

Would waiting for the starter to hit high krausen slow down your throughput?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Would waiting for the starter to hit high krausen slow down your throughput?

 

I doubt it. We won't have enough fermenters to need the brewhouse to be in constant use for a long time. 

[Genesee Ted]

I'll be using this technique if we end up with 30bbl fermenters.

You have a 10 or 15 bbl brew house?

[SchwanzBrewer]

You have a 10 or 15 bbl brew house?

 

We're aiming now for 15. Probably either Premier or possibly Crawford. I'll have to call up BrewBev and talk to them again too. 

[positiveContact]

so this is more of a general yeast question but how is growing yeast in 1 gallon of wort and then pitching that beer along with the yeast into 5 gallons of wort different than just putting the yeast into 6 gallons of wort right off the bat?

[Steve Urquell]

I'll answer what I can. I researched the crap out of yeast life cycle etc before doing this. Just answering from memory and it's been awhile so feel free to check my facts.

Yeast must prepare wort for fermentation by lowering the pH to acidic levels so you end up with a lag time based on starter batch size. Smaller volume=quicker start.

Pitching a starter at fermentation temps and holding it at those temps w/o using a stirplate is just like fermenting a small batch of beer and will result in no off flavors from oxidation. If you stir for a limited amt of time...and I don't remember the exact cutoff time...the yeast will use the O2 youve put into solution for fermentation and the starter will not oxidize. As stated above, I stir till I see small bubbles at the edge of the jar and stop but never stir over 5-6hrs. Not vigorous just enough to keep yeast suspended.

New info has come to light about total yeast count not being as important as yeast vitality. Makes sense. Build starters and crash--youre putting them to sleep. Active high krausen and they've got their pads on and are ready to enter the game.

As far as other concerns such as pitching your high krausen or fermented starter into oxygenated wort. I gently pour the starter into the wort after oxygenating it.

My WAG WRT this not being a problem with oxidation: Whatever amt of O2 you introduce into the fermented starter volume will be used for fermentation.

[positiveContact]

I'll answer what I can. I researched the crap out of yeast life cycle etc before doing this. Just answering from memory and it's been awhile so feel free to check my facts.

Yeast must prepare wort for fermentation by lowering the pH to acidic levels so you end up with a lag time based on starter batch size. Smaller volume=quicker start.

Pitching a starter at fermentation temps and holding it at those temps w/o using a stirplate is just like fermenting a small batch of beer and will result in no off flavors from oxidation. If you stir for a limited amt of time...and I don't remember the exact cutoff time...the yeast will use the O2 youve put into solution for fermentation and the starter will not oxidize. As stated above, I stir till I see small bubbles at the edge of the jar and stop but never stir over 5-6hrs. Not vigorous just enough to keep yeast suspended.

New info has come to light about total yeast count not being as important as yeast vitality. Makes sense. Build starters and crash--youre putting them to sleep. Active high krausen and they've got their pads on and are ready to enter the game.

As far as other concerns such as pitching your high krausen or fermented starter into oxygenated wort. I gently pour the starter into the wort after oxygenating it.

My WAG WRT this not being a problem with oxidation: Whatever amt of O2 you introduce into the fermented starter volume will be used for fermentation.

 

well I'm considering giving this method a go on my next lager.

 

the specs and initial conditions are as follows:

10 gallon batch of lager

OG of 1.051

vial of WL833 (best by some time in December)

I'll make a small starter on the stir plate ahead of time.  Probably 1.5L.  I'm not sure if I should crash it and decant first.  I'll take suggestions on that.

 

I'll mash in at night.  And I'll be mashing thin, like 2.8 qt/lb thin.  My first runnings should have a gravity around 1.046.

 

So after an hour I'll collect 1.5 gallons of first runnings (this seems right based on yeastcalc) and boil it for 20-30 minutes.  I might even toss in a few hop pellets b/c hey why not??  I'll then chill this and pitch the yeast in and let it ferment at appropriate lager temps (50Fish) for the night.

 

The following morning I'll drain the rest of the mash tun, do the world's smallest sparge on 10 gallons (1.5 gallon sparge) and finish making the rest of the wort.  My hope is that by the time I have this wort chilled the first 1.5 gallons will be really chugging along and I'll be able to pitch it in that day. 

 

Any problems or suggestions here?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 30 September 2015 - 05:15 AM.

[Steve Urquell]

Crash/decant small starter, yes on a few hop pellets, yeast nutrient or DAP will help/can't hurt. Looks solid. Rock on!

[positiveContact]

Crash/decant small starter, yes on a few hop pellets, yeast nutrient or DAP will help/can't hurt. Looks solid. Rock on!

 

I've never used nutrient before in my starters.  I have boiled some bread yeast in there though.  I figured dead yeast might provide something.

[Mya]

We're aiming now for 15. Probably either Premier or possibly Crawford. I'll have to call up BrewBev and talk to them again too. 

Give Spokane Industries a call (shameless plug for a local outfit)

[SchwanzBrewer]

Give Spokane Industries a call (shameless plug for a local outfit)

 

Will do.

[Steve Urquell]

I've never used nutrient before in my starters.  I have boiled some bread yeast in there though.  I figured dead yeast might provide something.

I use it if I have it. Just bought a tube of Wyeast nutrient and was surprised at how cheap it was. I think it's yeast hulls and DAP. Bread yeast will help. I don't have any set in stone ideas on nutrients benefits just use it b/c it can't hurt.

[Brauer]

I figured dead yeast might provide something.

You might get those by stirring your starter.

[neddles]

You might get those by stirring your starter.

Humor, irony, and science all in one short sentence. I like it.

[Brauer]

Humor, irony, and science all in one short sentence. I like it.

 

[positiveContact]

You might get those by stirring your starter.

 

I prefer to maim them!