137 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Remember that there are 'proper' pitching rates and it is possible to overpitch and have negative effects. I will follow the Mr. Malty calculator most of the time.

[Clintama]

As I've stated in previous posts, I make a lot of the same recipe, sometimes with subtle tweaks. I have had long lag times from under pitching and I've pitched directly on a 2X yeast cake (non removed) and the flavor of the beer has not changed. My temperature is very well controlled.I'm not telling people avoid calculating pitching rates, but I don't think you need to get that hung up on them. IMO most of Mr. Malty's calculated rates are too large, but again, that won't matter anyway.

[Clintama]

Well, that's not the opinion of many that drink it, but maybe you know better.

[Mindblock]

I have made some really disappointing beer before I changed my tune about pitching rates. Belgians excluded.

"In my experience" (which is clearly just another way of saying "I have no hard data to support what I am about to say, but trust me because I am old and wise.....well at least old <G>).....Anyway, in my experience underpitching is a reasonable strategy to augment the fermentation fruitiness of styles like Saison and Weissbier.....for bigger Belgians I have not had the same observation, and they have on occasion lacked "focus" and balance, particularly if I am using a temp ramping strategy for the fermentation.As always, YMMV.....With big Belgians, fermentation temp is a HUGE factor in the final taste of the beer. Last spring three brewing friends and I split 12 gallons of a 1.096 wort into four fermenters (3 gallons each) and pitched a very adequate and healthy colony of 3739 (Gulden Draak) into each of them.....so same wort and same starter.....each of us fermented differently, two at a single temp and two ramping the temp as fermentation progressed.....all four beers finished at the same gravity but had VERY different flavor and aroma profiles based only upon fermentation temperature.

[zymot]

I think there is a difference between fresh, clean, healthy yeast from a lab and re-using yeast from a previous batch.People go on Mr Malty and do the calculations, then compare the yeast count on a tube or smack pack and declare that they are getting lied to and ripped off.White Labs addresses the lab yeast Vs yeast cake question pretty well here:https://www.whitelab...mebrew_FAQ.htmlI make a 1 liter starter on a stirplate for most beers. If it is a big ass beer, I might split the vile and make two 1 liter starters.If I did not have time so make a starter and was very worried, I might buy two vials of yeast. Oh My God, spending 2 times more than I had to, homebrewing blasphemer!If it was a choice between brewing or not brewing., I would not be afraid to direct pitch a vial or smack pack on an average OG beer.

[ChefLamont]

This

[SchwanzBrewer]

Underpitching and off flavors are dependent more on style than anything. If you are within 50B cells you are fine, IMO. So if Mr Malty says you need 150B cells and you just pitch a vial or smack pack, no worries. It will be fine. If you are making a big beer and mr malty says you need 400B cells and you use 1 smack pack, you are probably asking for off flavors.

[Genesee Ted]

I don't think pitching rates are all that important to good beer, but definitely fermentation temperature.

[Clintama]

I don't get it.

[Mindblock]

I don't think pitching rates are all that important to good beer, but definitely fermentation temperature.

So, we are saying that pitching rates are important to fermentation temperature but not to the production of good beer??? <G>Man, I love this place.....BTW, brewboy, I agree with your point that IN GENERAL fermentation temperature has a far greater impact on the final product than pitching rate, I just work with lawyers way too much <G>

[Clintama]

OK now I get it, not the video, but my poor sentence structure.

[Genesee Ted]

Well, I will not argue that precise temp control will get homebrewers a much more consistently good product, but to suggest that pitch rate doesn't matter, I don't know... I mean, I get the whole RDWHAHB thing. If it works for you, awesome. I try to keep my homebrewing practices as practical as possible for a small scale brewer. Pitch rates do matter though. Some may find it cumbersome and time intensive to make a starter and to properly oxygenate, but it will make for a cleaner, more consistent, and faster fermentation. It all depends what you are looking to get out of it. I look at homebrewing as a way to brew what I want the way I want to, which for the most part includes "best possible practices". This segues back to the OP in that I do think that homebrewers can make better beer than commercial brewers because we utilize such small scale production methods that our controls have the opportunity to be much more fast acting and precise than most craft breweries. That being said, sloppy practice may lead to an acceptable product, yet still far from its utmost potential.

[Big Nake]

If it was a choice between brewing or not brewing., I would not be afraid to direct pitch a vial or smack pack on an average OG beer.

I do this occasionally with a very fresh Wyeast pack that expands in hours, not days or weeks. Most of my beers come in around 5%. I have been more hesitant to do that with White Labs vials although if the date was very current, I would think it would be okay to do. For lagers I typically make a starter.

[zymot]

As a homebrewer, there are many things that I have to take on as a matter of faith. I look to the people who make the beer I like to drink and try to learn what they do and copy it.Yeast pitching rate is one of those subjects. I do not know how many billions of cells per liter per degree plato is enough. I can't count how many cells I am pitching. I have not done a test to confirm that X billion of cells is too little or too much. All I have is conventional wisdom, go with that and see what I end up with.I remember when the Mr Malty calculator first came out, people would run the numbers and announce that a vile of White Labs is no where near big enough. You had to make a 2 liter starter, step it up and pitch a quart of pure yeast slurry or your beer is going suck. White Labs and Wyeast are crooks and a bunch of liars. Oh my god, where can I get a 5 liter flask so I can make a decent starter? (OK - maybe some hyperbole there)I know I have direct pitched a single vile of WPL002 and the beer tasted exactly what I expected.Interesting that Jamilz (AKA Mr Malty) co-wrote a book with Chris White of White labs about yeast. I wish I could find my copy and see how they resolve the Mr Malty calculator against White Labs direct pitch vile.It would be interesting to see somebody do the experiment. Split 10 gallons of wort. 5 gallons get a single vile, direct pitched, the other 5 gallons gets what ever the monster starter Mr Malty tells us we need to make. Put the two carboys in the same space and let them go.Is there a difference between the two beers? Does one taste better than other?It would also be interesting to learn what Sierra Nevada uses for a pitch rate. molbasser strictly respects Sierra Nevada's proprietary information status for yeast pitching rate (which I respect) and will not comment on the subject.

[Mindblock]

Well, I will not argue that precise temp control will get homebrewers a much more consistently good product, but to suggest that pitch rate doesn't matter, I don't know... I mean, I get the whole RDWHAHB thing. If it works for you, awesome. I try to keep my homebrewing practices as practical as possible for a small scale brewer. Pitch rates do matter though. Some may find it cumbersome and time intensive to make a starter and to properly oxygenate, but it will make for a cleaner, more consistent, and faster fermentation. It all depends what you are looking to get out of it. I look at homebrewing as a way to brew what I want the way I want to, which for the most part includes "best possible practices". This segues back to the OP in that I do think that homebrewers can make better beer than commercial brewers because we utilize such small scale production methods that our controls have the opportunity to be much more fast acting and precise than most craft breweries. That being said, sloppy practice may lead to an acceptable product, yet still far from its utmost potential.

PERFECTLY stated, IMHO.....for the time I invest in this hobby I want to have the ability to reproduce a product when I want to do so (wither because I have it dialed in the way I like it, or I want to make some tweaks to make it better).....there are times where RDWHAHB is clearly the play of the day.I also like Zymot's idea (posted while I was typing this) of a split batch of the same wort fermented side by side at exactly the same temperature to see what the effect is or is not, and get a handle in its size.....My gut feeling tells me that the impact will likely vary with yeast strain(s) chosen for the experiment and fermentation temperature selected for that strain.

[Big Nake]

I know I have direct pitched a single vile of WPL002 and the beer tasted exactly what I expected.

Agreed. I have done this with 1056, 1028, 1272 and even 2112 and the beer came out very good. The point of using Uber-fresh yeast (and also yeast that you know is straight-from-the-lab and not tainted, mutated, etc.) is interesting too because I sometimes wonder if that is better than me harvesting yeast and reusing it. I am usually very careful when harvesting and I always reuse the yeast within a few hours of harvesting it and those beers typically do come out good. But I cannot duplicate a yeast-lab environment in my kitchen so it makes you wonder. EDIT: I always oxygenate my wort with pure O2 whether it's direct-pitch from a pack or vial, a starter or harvested yeast. Shorter for ales and longer for lagers.

Edited by KenLenard, 26 February 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Genesee Ted]

As a homebrewer, there are many things that I have to take on as a matter of faith. I look to the people who make the beer I like to drink and try to learn what they do and copy it.Yeast pitching rate is one of those subjects. I do not know how many billions of cells per liter per degree plato is enough. I can't count how many cells I am pitching. I have not done a test to confirm that X billion of cells is too little or too much. All I have is conventional wisdom, go with that and see what I end up with.I remember when the Mr Malty calculator first came out, people would run the numbers and announce that a vile of White Labs is no where near big enough. You had to make a 2 liter starter, step it up and pitch a quart of pure yeast slurry or your beer is going suck. White Labs and Wyeast are crooks and a bunch of liars. Oh my god, where can I get a 5 liter flask so I can make a decent starter? (OK - maybe some hyperbole there)I know I have direct pitched a single vile of WPL002 and the beer tasted exactly what I expected.Interesting that Jamilz (AKA Mr Malty) co-wrote a book with Chris White of White labs about yeast. I wish I could find my copy and see how they resolve the Mr Malty calculator against White Labs direct pitch vile.It would be interesting to see somebody do the experiment. Split 10 gallons of wort. 5 gallons get a single vile, direct pitched, the other 5 gallons gets what ever the monster starter Mr Malty tells us we need to make. Put the two carboys in the same space and let them go.Is there a difference between the two beers? Does one taste better than other?It would also be interesting to learn what Sierra Nevada uses for a pitch rate. molbasser strictly respects Sierra Nevada's proprietary information status for yeast pitching rate (which I respect) and will not comment on the subject.

FWIW he has said overpitch and ferment high. I really don't think that Jamil and Chris White are conspiring to get people to pitch too much yeast.

[MtnBrewer]

As a homebrewer, there are many things that I have to take on as a matter of faith. I look to the people who make the beer I like to drink and try to learn what they do and copy it.Yeast pitching rate is one of those subjects. I do not know how many billions of cells per liter per degree plato is enough. I can't count how many cells I am pitching. I have not done a test to confirm that X billion of cells is too little or too much. All I have is conventional wisdom, go with that and see what I end up with.I remember when the Mr Malty calculator first came out, people would run the numbers and announce that a vile of White Labs is no where near big enough. You had to make a 2 liter starter, step it up and pitch a quart of pure yeast slurry or your beer is going suck. White Labs and Wyeast are crooks and a bunch of liars. Oh my god, where can I get a 5 liter flask so I can make a decent starter? (OK - maybe some hyperbole there)I know I have direct pitched a single vile of WPL002 and the beer tasted exactly what I expected.Interesting that Jamilz (AKA Mr Malty) co-wrote a book with Chris White of White labs about yeast. I wish I could find my copy and see how they resolve the Mr Malty calculator against White Labs direct pitch vile.It would be interesting to see somebody do the experiment. Split 10 gallons of wort. 5 gallons get a single vile, direct pitched, the other 5 gallons gets what ever the monster starter Mr Malty tells us we need to make. Put the two carboys in the same space and let them go.Is there a difference between the two beers? Does one taste better than other?It would also be interesting to learn what Sierra Nevada uses for a pitch rate. molbasser strictly respects Sierra Nevada's proprietary information status for yeast pitching rate (which I respect) and will not comment on the subject.

FYI: vial

[Mindblock]

FYI: vial

Unless he didn't particularly LIKE the yeast and the end product it produced.....pitch rate notwithstanding<G>

[MtnBrewer]

Unless he didn't particularly LIKE the yeast and the end product it produced.....pitch rate notwithstanding<G>

Well in that case, carry on.