19 replies to this topic

[MtnBrewer]

There was a request for the other three beers that I'm going to undertake soon. These are three lagers all using Augustiner yeast, starting wtih a pilsner, then a Dortmunder and finally a Vienna.

Maid in Heaven Pilsner

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):	 5.50	Wort Size (Gal):	5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):	 9.00
Anticipated OG:		 1.047	Plato:		       11.59
Anticipated SRM:         2.9
Anticipated IBU:	46.6
Brewhouse Efficiency:	75 %
Wort Boil Time:		90	Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:	1.15	Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:	6.65	Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:	1.039	SG		  9.65  Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %	 Amount	 Name						  Origin		Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.0	 9.00 lbs. Pilsener					  Germany		1.038	  2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount	 Name				Form	Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.00 oz.	Magnum				Whole   10.50  37.4  60 min.
  1.00 oz.	Hallertauer Mittelfruh		Pellet   4.30   8.4  15 min.
  1.00 oz.	Tettnanger Tettnang		Pellet   4.50   0.8  1 min.


Yeast
-----

Augustiner Lager Yeast

Water Profile
-------------

Profile:           GM - Pilsner
Profile known for: Pilsners in Colorado Springs

Calcium(Ca):          72.7 ppm
Magnesium(Mg):         3.2 ppm
Sodium(Na):           14.3 ppm
Sulfate(SO4):        149.3 ppm
Chloride(Cl):          9.5 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3):    59.0 ppm

pH: 8.31


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs:	9.00
Water Qts:     11.25 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:	2.81 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 147  Time:  90
Mash-out Rest Temp :	       0  Time:   0
Sparge Temp :		       0  Time:   0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 3.53 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Notes
-----

Augustiner yeast. Primary: 47-52. Secondary: 4 weeks (or more) at 35. Carbonate: 2-2.5 vols CO2.


Source: Derived from Brewing Classic Styles, p. 58.

[MtnBrewer]

Shine On You Crazy Dortmund

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):	 5.50	Wort Size (Gal):	5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):	10.63
Anticipated OG:		 1.055	Plato:		       13.47
Anticipated SRM:	 5.9
Anticipated IBU:	28.7
Brewhouse Efficiency:	75 %
Wort Boil Time:		90	Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:	1.15	Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:	7.22	Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:	1.042	SG		  10.36  Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %	 Amount	 Name					Origin		Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.6	 7.50 lbs. Pilsener				Germany		1.038	  2
28.2	 3.00 lbs. Munich Malt				Germany		1.037	  8
 1.2	 0.13 lbs. Melanoidin Malt			                1.033	 35

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount	 Name							  Form	Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.70 oz.	Hallertauer Mittelfruh			Pellet   4.30  27.1  60 min.
  0.50 oz.	Hallertauer Mittelfruh			Pellet   4.30   1.6  5 min.
  0.50 oz.	Hallertauer Mittelfruh			Pellet   4.30   0.0  0 min.


Yeast
-----

Augustiner Lager Yeast


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:		   Dortmund
Profile known for: Pale Lager

Calcium(Ca):	       260.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg):		23.0 ppm
Sodium(Na):		69.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4):	       240.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl):	       106.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3):     270.0 ppm

pH: 8.34


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs:   10.63
Water Qts:   13.28 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    3.32 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp :	       0  Time:   0
Sparge Temp :		       0  Time:   0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.17 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Notes
-----

Primary: 50°F; Secondary: 4 weeks (minimum) @ 35°F. FG: 1.013. Carbonate to 2-2.5 volumes CO2.


Source: This is basically just J&J's DE recipe from p. 55 of Brewing Classic Styles.

[MtnBrewer]

Banditos Vienna

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         5.50    Wort Size (Gal):    5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):       10.13
Anticipated OG:          1.051    Plato:             12.72
Anticipated SRM:          10.8
Anticipated IBU:          27.4
Brewhouse Efficiency:       75 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:       1.15    Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.22    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.039    SG          9.78  Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 32.1     3.25 lbs. Pilsener                      Germany        1.038      2
 27.2     2.75 lbs. Munich Malt                   Germany        1.037      8
 39.5     4.00 lbs. Vienna Malt                   Germany        1.037      3
  1.2     0.13 lbs. Carafa III De-husked          Germany        1.030    470

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.50 oz.    Hallertauer Mittelfruh            Pellet   4.30  24.5  60 min.
  0.50 oz.    Hallertauer Mittelfruh            Pellet   4.30   3.0  10 min.


Yeast
-----

Augustiner Lager Yeast


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:           Colo Spgs - Mesa
Profile known for: 

Calcium(Ca):          17.4 ppm
Magnesium(Mg):         3.2 ppm
Sodium(Na):           14.3 ppm
Sulfate(SO4):         16.6 ppm
Chloride(Cl):          9.5 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3):    59.0 ppm

pH: 7.96


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs:   10.13
Water Qts:   12.66 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    3.16 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp :           0  Time:   0
Sparge Temp :                  0  Time:   0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 3.98 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Notes
-----

Primary: 50°F; Secondary: 4 weeks (minimum) @ 35°F. FG: 1.012. Carbonate to 2-2.5 volumes of CO2.


Source: North of the Border Vienna, p. 68 of Brewing Classic Styles.

[Big Nake]

149ppm of SO4 and only 9ppm Chloride? What am I missing? That, plus the 10AAU of Magnum up front seems like it would be spiky beyond belief.

[MtnBrewer]

149ppm of SO4 and only 9ppm Chloride? What am I missing? That, plus the 10AAU of Magnum up front seems like it would be spiky beyond belief.

That's all the chloride my water has. I could reduce the gypsum if you think I should.

[Big Nake]

That's all the chloride my water has. I could reduce the gypsum if you think I should.

Well, I'm not about to tell you what direction to go but it just seems out there to me. For comparison, I made a nice ESB last year and added 2.5g of CaSO4 to the mash and ended up with 60ppm of SO4 overall (127ppm for the mash only) and that is for a beer where sulfates should be high. Plus, I thought there was a "high sulfates with Noble hops" thing that you should be careful with... something about really harsh & sharp flavors. Just thinking out loud. Not sure how much gypsum you're adding but I would probably add some CaCl to boost the chlorides and then lower whatever amount of gypsum you're adding to make the ratio closer. If you believe in the Cl:SO ratio, you're way, way into the VERY BITTER area.

[Big Nake]

I think I do pretty good with 354ppm of SO₄

On a pilsner?

[Big Nake]

Everything I have read and everyone I have spoke with suggests that sulfates and bicarbonate should be "low" to "very low" and even "non-existent" in these styles. I guess you don't know unless you try. I know that your sulfate level would probably work especially nicely with bitters, ESBs, EPAs and the like. Those are also some of my favorite styles and I use gypsum to boost my sulfate level... but not to your levels. Cheers.

[MtnBrewer]

Well, I'm not about to tell you what direction to go but it just seems out there to me. For comparison, I made a nice ESB last year and added 2.5g of CaSO4 to the mash and ended up with 60ppm of SO4 overall (127ppm for the mash only) and that is for a beer where sulfates should be high. Plus, I thought there was a "high sulfates with Noble hops" thing that you should be careful with... something about really harsh & sharp flavors. Just thinking out loud. Not sure how much gypsum you're adding but I would probably add some CaCl to boost the chlorides and then lower whatever amount of gypsum you're adding to make the ratio closer. If you believe in the Cl:SO ratio, you're way, way into the VERY BITTER area.

That water profile is just Co Spgs tap water with 7g of gypsum so it doesn't really sound that "out there" to me. I thought about adding some CaCl₂ and I still might but I didn't want too much Cl rounding out the bitterness. Plus if I start adding a bunch of ions to the water, at some point it's no longer *my* water. It's Germany's water or whatever. Water is about the only way to create a local terroir in beer.

I've heard talk of the Cl:SO₄ ratio but I don't know what's significant about it.

[Big Nake]

I would love to just ignore my water and make whatever styles I wanted without worrying but the truth is that I don't know how to use my filtered tap water (as 100% of the brewing water) to make certain styles. I would rather adjust the water and get the beer I'm envisioning than keep the water the same and say that this is the best I can do. I suppose I could try to make something like a Helles where I used 100% filtered tap water, add some CaCl to get it a little "rounder" and then just use less hops to counter the bicarbonate in my water. But every time I tried making a pale-colored beer with my filtered tap water I had a harsh, astringent finish in the beer.

[MtnBrewer]

Posted the Dortmunder recipe. You'll note that this time around, it's definitely NOT my water, lol.

[MtnBrewer]

I think I do pretty good with 354ppm of SO₄

I would love to just ignore my water and make whatever styles I wanted without worrying but the truth is that I don't know how to use my filtered tap water (as 100% of the brewing water) to make certain styles.

Guest, being the geologist that he is, discovered a weird wormhole that connects the aquifers of Burton-on-Trent and eastern Colorado. And really, is there a wormhole anywhere that isn't weird?

[Big Nake]

Posted the Dortmunder recipe.

You'll note that this time around, it's definitely NOT my water, lol.

Yeah, that looks amped up. But the recipe looks great. I was just reading something (I forget where) and someone suggested yeast for a Dortmund and the options were something like 830, 2278 or 2042 Danish and someone thought that the Danish would be the best bet for the style. This is a lager yeast I have not used. Lulz, Shine On You Crazy Dortmund.

[MtnBrewer]

That's got to be the original Carlsberg yeast, no? I've not used it either but I may have to invent an excuse to try it someday. Jamil actually recommended 830 or 2124 in his version of the recipe. One thing I've noticed about lager yeasts is that 90% of them are more or less interchangeable. That's not to say that they're all the same but you can brew just about any lager with just about any lager yeast. You'll get different results depending on what yeast you use but pilsners will still be pilsners and won't morph into something else just because you used a different yeast. That can totally happen in the ale world. I would say that 2308 is one of the few exceptions. ETA: Yeah, they're going to be named for songs in this arc. Not sure what to do about the Vienna. Vienna was a song (and album) by Ultravox but I can't just name it Vienna can I?

[Big Nake]

I would agree about the lager yeasts. I would not make a pilsner with 2308, 2206, 838, 833 or 820 because I feel that they're more towards Oktobers, Dunkels, Viennas, Marzens, etc. But there are a lot of pilsner type lager yeasts... 800, 802, 830, 840, 940, 2000, 2001, 2124, 2278, 2042, 2782 and probably 10 that I forgot. Tough call on the name of the Vienna... something from the sound of music maybe Vienna Von Trapp or something. The hills are alive... with the sound of Vienna...

[MtnBrewer]

Wait, so there's no wormhole? I was assured that there was a wormhole. Maybe it's a wormhole to an aquifer on Callisto?

[MtnBrewer]

I would agree about the lager yeasts. I would not make a pilsner with 2308, 2206, 838, 833 or 820 because I feel that they're more towards Oktobers, Dunkels, Viennas, Marzens, etc. But there are a lot of pilsner type lager yeasts... 800, 802, 830, 840, 940, 2000, 2001, 2124, 2278, 2042, 2782 and probably 10 that I forgot. Tough call on the name of the Vienna... something from the sound of music maybe Vienna Von Trapp or something. The hills are alive... with the sound of Vienna...

2206 actually makes a very good pilsner. In fact that is a Swiss Army yeast if there ever was one. More of a German style than Czech though.

Needs to be a song that I can play on the guitar. How about Banditos? The original recipe is called North of the Border so the Banditos reference could tie in with the Mexican amber lagers like Dos XX and Negra Modelo.

[MtnBrewer]

The Vienna is now up. It and the Dortmund are almost unchanged from Jamil's original.

[Brauer]

This begs a question: How does BMC advertise both crisp and smooth to describe their pilsners?

BMC make Pilsners?

[Big Nake]

The Vienna looks nice. I will be coming back to this thread when I have a suitable yeast up & running (I'm thinking 2124) so I can look at it. [stream-of-conciousness-thinking]I made a string of gold lagers earlier this year and in that string, I played with using 50% RO, 75% RO, using CaCl, gypsum, lactic acid, acid malt, etc. I played very close attention to mash and sparge pH and the only real thing I wanted to see was how the water mods affected the final beer. I know I just mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but when you see homebrewers exchange recipes, you rarely see water data because a lot of brewers don't want to get into it or they just don't have to. But it's wild to me because the water used in a batch can make a huge difference in the beer. Denny's RIPA might be smooth and malty in one home brewery while being ultra-hoppy and prickly in another home brewery and that goes for any other beer out there. One of my strings of gold lagers was kegged on Monday night and force-carbed until this afternoon at about 25psi. I decided to connect a cobra tap and check it out. This beer is my Cabana Lager (Pils, Vienna, flaked corn, noble hops to about 22-23 IBUs and WLP940). For this beer I used 50% RO water and added 5g of CaCl and .5g of gypsum. The beer came out very nicely and has just a touch of a "spritzy"-ness to it which may be from using only 50% RO or possibly from the very small addition of gypsum or both. It occurs to me that some American breweries might make their water profile "very bitter" (high sulfates) and then use a very small amount of hops (relatively speaking) to acheive the perception of bitterness. All of this hammers home the point that water makeup plays a giant role in the beer character. [/stream]