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#41 MtnBrewer

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 11:52 AM

I dunno but unless all of the "famous" homebrew guys (Jamil, John Palmer, etc) are full of $h!†, it's possible -- or at least undesirable -- to overpitch.

Me and Schwanz are here to tell you that it's both possible AND undesirable. Yuk!

#42 miccullen

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 01:19 PM

Me and Schwanz are here to tell you that it's both possible AND undesirable. Yuk!

Jolly Rancher Ale™ ?


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#43 ER Pemberton

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

Does anyone remember the podcast where they talked about pitching rates... probably on The Brewing Network?

 

Jamil described how yeast will go through some phases before actual fermentation begins robustly and during that phase, there are compounds and flavors created that beer drinkers find 'pleasing'.  When you overpitch, the yeast bypasses those phases (or they're curtailed) and those flavors are not produced.  As a result you end up with a flatter-tasting, flavorless beer.  That stuck in my head because I know some brewers drop new wort directly onto a full cake or pitch the entire contents of harvested slurry (which could easily be enough to pitch into FOUR or FIVE new batches) and I know that's just not right.


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#44 armagh

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

 I know some brewers drop new wort directly onto a full cake or pitch the entire contents of harvested slurry (which could easily be enough to pitch into FOUR or FIVE new batches) and I know that's just not right.

That is a prescription for undrinkable beer.  Guess how I know?


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#45 denny

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:11 PM

Me and Schwanz are here to tell you that it's both possible AND undesirable. Yuk!

I'm on board with that!
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#46 denny

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

Does anyone remember the podcast where they talked about pitching rates... probably on The Brewing Network? Jamil described how yeast will go through some phases before actual fermentation begins robustly and during that phase, there are compounds and flavors created that beer drinkers find 'pleasing'.  When you overpitch, the yeast bypasses those phases (or they're curtailed) and those flavors are not produced.  As a result you end up with a flatter-tasting, flavorless beer.  That stuck in my head because I know some brewers drop new wort directly onto a full cake or pitch the entire contents of harvested slurry (which could easily be enough to pitch into FOUR or FIVE new batches) and I know that's just not right.

That's basically the Clayton Cone Acetyl co-A theory.
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#47 Stout_fan

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:30 PM

Talking to the commercial place that I almost worked at they use 1l per BBL.  But they have 30' tall fermenters. I'm thinking fermenter geometry and static pressure changes a few things.


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#48 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:39 PM

Not something you want to chase down either. I was getting odd flavors and we attributed them to saaz hops, magnum hops, water, house "flavor" any but acetaldehyde. I was really getting pissed off about my brews. Took 9 months to figure it out. It was showing up to some extent in every one of my beers except the hefe. Then after a comp team meeting we were drinking beer and I was frustrated because my alt had the off flavor AGAIN, and we pulled out a book read about some off flavors and saw that over pitching was one possibility. We had ALL dismissed it prior because we thought you couldn't over pitch homebrew which had been beaten into our heads since we started brewing. Then as I happened to be looking at yeastcalc.com I noticed that Kai had a formula in there now and it gave different numbers than Jamil.  Kai was estimating about 1.5X as much yeast as Jamil. I read the articles and it made sense. Next brew following kai's formula, no acetaldehyde. Every one since then has been properly pitched and is coming out the way I intended. My first alt since the disaster is just about ready now. I'm betting it wins gold at some comps in the next couple months.


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#49 ER Pemberton

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:56 PM

Not something you want to chase down either. I was getting odd flavors and we attributed them to saaz hops, magnum hops, water, house "flavor" any but acetaldehyde. I was really getting pissed off about my brews. Took 9 months to figure it out. It was showing up to some extent in every one of my beers except the hefe. Then after a comp team meeting we were drinking beer and I was frustrated because my alt had the off flavor AGAIN, and we pulled out a book read about some off flavors and saw that over pitching was one possibility. We had ALL dismissed it prior because we thought you couldn't over pitch homebrew which had been beaten into our heads since we started brewing. Then as I happened to be looking at yeastcalc.com I noticed that Kai had a formula in there now and it gave different numbers than Jamil.  Kai was estimating about 1.5X as much yeast as Jamil. I read the articles and it made sense. Next brew following kai's formula, no acetaldehyde. Every one since then has been properly pitched and is coming out the way I intended. My first alt since the disaster is just about ready now. I'm betting it wins gold at some comps in the next couple months.

Yep, some of these things can take a looooong time to figure out and since there is so much information out there, it's hard to know what's what.  You don't know if your yeast is stressed or unhealthy and yeast cells don't tell you that they would like less or more of their friends in the pool so you have to figure it out.  I think my water odyssey went on longer than your off-flavor odyssey but at least we both know how nice it feels to finally find it and say AHA! 


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#50 Steve Urquell

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:08 PM

I decided that I'm too squeamish (and probably lazy) to actually save the yeast and reuse it later.  But I still wanted to get more than one batch per blob of yeast so now I just plan to move the current beer from primary on the same day I want to make another beer with that yeast. 

I kept meaning to reply to this thread but have just gotten around to it. Ken, I used to take this exact approach after ruining a batch with some rinsed yeast. I did this for years and have just figured out a way that works better for me and makes me feel comfortable saving yeast for reuse.

 

I brew mostly lagers--have 7 on tap now. I can't get to pitching temp on brewday so I pour thru a strainer into a bucket with a solid lid (no airlock) and put my wort in my ferm chamber overnight. The following day, I rack off the sedimented break/trub into a clean fermenter and pitch the yeast. Post-ferm, I have almost pure yeast with little to no trub. I open a new bottle of water, swish around, and put the yeast into 2 jars for later re-use.

 

If the yeast is 2-3 weeks old, I will direct pitch into cold wort. If the yeast is over a month old, I'll pull 1.5 gal of 2nd runnings, boil it for 45-60 mins, chill to pitching temps and put it in a gallon jug with the yeast. This goes in the chamber to ferment at ferm temps until the rest of the batch is ready to pitch(usually 24hrs) I have actively fermenting beer that isn't oxidized to pitch in the full batch the next day.

 

Here's a pic of harvested 3rd gen Mangrove Jack's M-84 lager yeast in a qt jar. No washing was done to it.  ~200ml of very clean yeast.

 

Posted Image


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#51 miccullen

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:13 PM

I kept meaning to reply to this thread but have just gotten around to it. Ken, I used to take this exact approach after ruining a batch with some rinsed yeast. I did this for years and have just figured out a way that works better for me and makes me feel comfortable saving yeast for reuse.

 

I brew mostly lagers--have 7 on tap now. I can't get to pitching temp on brewday so I pour thru a strainer into a bucket with a solid lid (no airlock) and put my wort in my ferm chamber overnight. The following day, I rack off the sedimented break/trub into a clean fermenter and pitch the yeast. Post-ferm, I have almost pure yeast with little to no trub. I open a new bottle of water, swish around, and put the yeast into 2 jars for later re-use.

 

If the yeast is 2-3 weeks old, I will direct pitch into cold wort. If the yeast is over a month old, I'll pull 1.5 gal of 2nd runnings, boil it for 45-60 mins, chill to pitching temps and put it in a gallon jug with the yeast. This goes in the chamber to ferment at ferm temps until the rest of the batch is ready to pitch(usually 24hrs) I have actively fermenting beer that isn't oxidized to pitch in the full batch the next day.

 

Here's a pic of harvested 3rd gen Mangrove Jack's M-84 lager yeast in a qt jar. No washing was done to it.  ~200ml of very clean yeast.

 

Posted Image

that's purty!

 

what's your impression of the yeast, does it compare too any liquid strains?


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#52 Steve Urquell

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:24 PM

that's purty!

 

what's your impression of the yeast, does it compare too any liquid strains?

I can't compare it to anything specific but similar to WY 2278. It has a character all its own. It has attenuated to ~ 72% for my 3 batches with it, is extremely hazy post-ferm and a lazy mother-floccer needing 32F to drop out. I recommend gelling anything brewed with it.

 

That being said, I like it for anything you don't need to be too clean. It fits well for my Bohemian styles(svelte, polotmave, and cerne) but not clean enough for helles or german pils. Oh yeah, 1st gen will not start at anything below 56F. after that, the harvested stuff will rock bawls.


Edited by chils, 27 August 2013 - 05:24 PM.

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#53 miccullen

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:36 PM

I can't compare it to anything specific but similar to WY 2278. It has a character all its own. It has attenuated to ~ 72% for my 3 batches with it, is extremely hazy post-ferm and a lazy mother-floccer needing 32F to drop out. I recommend gelling anything brewed with it.

 

That being said, I like it for anything you don't need to be too clean. It fits well for my Bohemian styles(svelte, polotmave, and cerne) but not clean enough for helles or german pils. Oh yeah, 1st gen will not start at anything below 56F. after that, the harvested stuff will rock bawls.

what pitch rate would you reccomend for 1st gen dry, for say, a 5 gallon batch at 1.055?


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#54 Steve Urquell

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:56 PM

what pitch rate would you reccomend for 1st gen dry, for say, a 5 gallon batch at 1.055?

2 packs rehydrated and pitched at 57F, drop temp to 52-54F at the first signs of activity. My first batch fermented at 55F and is as clean as a later batch fermented at 52F.


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#55 miccullen

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

2 packs rehydrated and pitched at 57F, drop temp to 52-54F at the first signs of activity. My first batch fermented at 55F and is as clean as a later batch fermented at 52F.

thanks


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#56 ER Pemberton

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

Yum.  Chils, I would drink that slurry right there.  Just ####ing wolf it.  I might be a little gassy the next day but hey, what's the difference?  :P

 

The problem that I had was that I was saving everything and couldn't reuse it all quick enough.  At first I thought, I'm going to keep a blob of EVERY yeast strain I like to have and that way I'll never have to buy yeast again! which is nonsense, of course.  I can't have 20 bottles of slurry taking up valuable real estate in my fridges so I just make 2 or 3 batches with the same yeast on consecutive batches and then retire it.  I like that system and the cleanliness of your yeast is evident!  Cheers.


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#57 Steve Urquell

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:04 PM

Yum.  Chils, I would drink that slurry right there.  Just ####ing wolf it.  I might be a little gassy the next day but hey, what's the difference?  :P The problem that I had was that I was saving everything and couldn't reuse it all quick enough.  At first I thought, I'm going to keep a blob of EVERY yeast strain I like to have and that way I'll never have to buy yeast again! which is nonsense, of course.  I can't have 20 bottles of slurry taking up valuable real estate in my fridges so I just make 2 or 3 batches with the same yeast on consecutive batches and then retire it.  I like that system and the cleanliness of your yeast is evident!  Cheers.

Ahh, I got ya. I just ran into not always wanting to brew the same day I wanted to rack. Also never liked rinsing and separating yeast and trub. I never got as much as I wanted after decanting and couldn't get it as clean as I wanted. No trub into the fermenter eliminated that problem for me.I also retire after a few fermentations. The above yeast will go into batch #4 as it was 1/2 of the yeast harvested from batch #2.
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#58 BarelyBrews

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:15 AM

After reading this topic i decided to pour half of my 1 quart slurry in each fermentor, i normally use 1 quart in each batch. I had active fermentation in 3-4 hours, wheat beers are kicking it up -one fermentor keeps wanting to blow the airlock. Both at 66 degrees . Now im excited to taste these. :D


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