146 replies to this topic

[gnef]

I just uploaded some photos:Here is the construction of the coffin box:And here are photos of the cold side getting filled with some kegs (I believe a total of just a bit of 60 kegs there, soon with more to be added)Here you see some of the interior electrical work done:In each chamber, I have the same electrical setup. Power comes in, goes to one full receptacle (two outlets), as well as to a switch to the interior light (rated for lower than freezing). The other receptacle is fed from the temperature controller, which is why the air conditioner is hooked up to that side (left in the picture).The interior electrical outlets were very convenient during construction - plugging in the wet/dry vac, dehumidifier, etc. plus in the fermentation side, I will be able to run the stir plate, as well as a HEPA filter at some point in the future. I don't expect to use the outlets much on the cold side, but I wanted to make each chamber as flexible as possible.sidenote - the pictures posted here are only a portion of what I have on the imageshack site, so if you click any of the pictures, you should be able to browse all of the photos I've uploaded.edit - I've also measured out the positions of the shanks. If I do 3 inch centers, I can do a single line of 14 faucets. If I do a second level offset, I will be able to get another 13 in there, for a total of 27. I don't know if I will ever get to that many, but one can only hope! (it would be amazingly expensive for all stainless for that many)

Edited by gnef, 18 July 2011 - 09:36 AM.

[gnef]

well, it keeps freezing up on me. I was able to get it down to 47F stable for a while, but then I checked later and it was up to 52F because it froze up on the inside coils.Is this where some of you put the computer fan to blow over the coils on the inside?

[HVB]

well, it keeps freezing up on me. I was able to get it down to 47F stable for a while, but then I checked later and it was up to 52F because it froze up on the inside coils.Is this where some of you put the computer fan to blow over the coils on the inside?

I never thought of a muffin fan but I was going to wire mine up so the fan is on one plug and the control on another. Similiar to what is shown in the link. If a simple pc or muffin fan works though, that may be the way to go.My link

[gnef]

Well, the fans are working great so far, I put in two 92mm computer fans. They have a speed control, and it is set to high right now. Once I get it to temp, I will try lowering the fan speed to see if the low will be sufficient.The cooler is set at 41F, and as long as everything goes to plan, I will set it to 40F tomorrow morning, and start installing the shanks and faucets.I am going to start with the CO2 tank inside the chamber, at least for now. I still need to figure out the best way to split the gas to so many kegs without any leaks. Any suggestions?

[Kremer]

Dang that's a lotta beer.

[gnef]

Nothing seems to go to plan. I dropped it to 40F this morning, and all seemed well, then I went to check on it just a little while ago, and it was at 43F - it has iced over again. So now I brought it back up to 46F to de-ice, and I've added another fan. Hopefully the additional fan is only needed to get it to drop to 40F, and once it stabilizes, I can just stick with the computer fans.My 7/8'' bimetal hole saw is also really dull, so I will need to go get another one so I can start drilling the holes. I also just realized that I don't think I have enough flared->barbed fittings for all the liquid lines that I want to install, so I will have to get more of those as well.

[BlKtRe]

Where is your sensor?

[gnef]

The probe is in a whitelabs vial filled with icepack gel. It is next to the outlet (wires all coming in through the same place), which is close to the air conditioner, placed lower on the wall, so that the cold air from the AC unit does not blow over the vial.I was able to get it back down to 42F last night, and I just dropped it to 41F this morning, I'll let is sit there for a while before dropping it to 40F later today.

[BlKtRe]

The probe is in a whitelabs vial filled with icepack gel. It is next to the outlet (wires all coming in through the same place), which is close to the air conditioner, placed lower on the wall, so that the cold air from the AC unit does not blow over the vial.I was able to get it back down to 42F last night, and I just dropped it to 41F this morning, I'll let is sit there for a while before dropping it to 40F later today.

I suggest taking days not hours to stabilize when going that low. Give it a chance to remove any and all condensation. The fans should help. The issue is going in/out to many times. I finally chose to stick in the mid-upper 40's since it stabilized nicely at that temp and even though I could go colder, the risk of freezing up was greater.

[gnef]

Are you serving from your walk-in? If so, how do you like the higher serving temperature?Also, I could be wrong, but I recall reading somewhere (the source fails me right now) that the ideal temperature for storing beer was 38F.I will also be going in and out a lot soon too as I install the serving hardware, beerline and gas line.I also put in a tub of damp-rid, so hopefully that will help with the moisture.

[BlKtRe]

Are you serving from your walk-in? If so, how do you like the higher serving temperature?Also, I could be wrong, but I recall reading somewhere (the source fails me right now) that the ideal temperature for storing beer was 38F.I will also be going in and out a lot soon too as I install the serving hardware, beerline and gas line.I also put in a tub of damp-rid, so hopefully that will help with the moisture.

I was going to suggest damp-rid, but you are already on it. Here is the way I see beer storing temps. Lacto is the main concern. If I remember correctly Lacto doesnt like to form below 50*. So if you use proper sanitation/sanitize techniques then Lacto shouldnt be an issue below 50*. Of course Lacto is a risk no matter what. I probably have only lost a few beers to Lacto in over 5 yrs of operation of my walkin keeping my temps at 48* or so. But again there are other things that could of been the cause besides the storage temp. One thing I do feel is important is every time I switch out kegs, empty or partials, the posts and connectors get a good spray of starsan. Before and after each hookup. Anytime a keg is connected/disconnected you run the chance of introducing bacteria. This goes for keeping the gas lines clean. As we all know we sometimes make mistakes and allow beer to back up into the gas lines. Everybody does this at least a few times in their careers. Here is the best theory I go by concerning cellar temp's of beer.

There are 3 storage temperatures used to lay beer down for maturation and/or storage. Not only will you want store your beers at these specific temperatures, but also you'll want to serve them at the same. Your strong beers (like barleywines, tripels, dark ales) will be their happiest at room temperature (55-60F), most of your standard ales (like bitters, IPAs, dobbelbocks, lambics, stouts, etc) will be at cellar temperature (50-55F) and your lighter beers (like lagers, pilsners, wheat beers, milds, etc) will be at a refrigerated temperature (45-50F). Usually the higher alcohol, the higher temperature and lower alcohol, the lower temperature ... you get the point.

Beer Advocate Beer StorageYes, I serve from my walkin. But I have long shanks that come straight out of the wall. I dont have a coffin box. I have mixed feelings about coffin boxes. Mainly its just another area that can produce leaks and more for the ac unit to try and keep cool. Im not saying it wont work great properly constructed. Your's looks like its done right.

Edited by BlKtRe, 26 July 2011 - 06:53 AM.

[gnef]

That is some great advice about spraying star san on the posts and disconnects, and hopefully I can make that a habit from now on.That is a good link, thanks for sharing! I guess I am not going to get too obsessive about hitting 40F then. Right now it is set to 41F, and I don't want to move it down just yet because I've been in and out of there a few times today already - I just installed three shanks and faucets into the coffin box, and I want to let it restabilize before I do anything with the temperatures.I definitely agree with your assessment of the coffin box - it was just the best compromise I could come up with. Here is my thought process that took a while for me to work out: First - I wanted to be able to use my old stainless shanks, and they are only 4 1/8'' long, so they would not have been able to go through the wall. My other option was to not insulate part of the wall, and just use 2x6 lumber for the shanks to go through. I decided against this because of insulation and space restrictions within studs.Then I thought about new shanks that could go through all of the wall, but I would want somewhere around 10'' shanks, which I would have to buy new, and with my experience with my old chrome plated brass, and my newer stainless, I definitely wanted stainless. I decided this wasn't the way to go due to cost (I am already way over budget).With the coffin box, it is definitely the weakest part of the insulation/r-value of the cold side. I have noticed though that there isn't much air movement within the coffin box, so energy will mainly be transferred through conduction and radiation. I feel that I've minimized the energy transfer as much as is reasonable for me right now - I could put in more rigid foam insulation, but I don't think it will help too much at this point. After installing the three shanks and faucets, I noticed the coffin box stays fairly warm as well, which is actually good to me. It will make the first pour from any faucet foamy, but if it limits my heat loss, I am willing to make that compromise.I will need to buy more stainless shanks, but that will be done gradually, and I may even use some of the shanks from my jockey boxes in the short term, just so I can get it up to 14 faucets serving from the walk-in (I have a LOT of shanks/faucets for jockey boxes, so that isn't a problem right now).I hope this post didn't sound defensive - I'm not, I just wanted to make sure to explain my rational. Most likely what I did may not be the best option for someone else, and we all work with different constraints, and I hope that this thread will be able to help someone else who may be building a smaller fermentation box, or an even larger walk-in cooler.Thanks again for your input, I definitely appreciate it, and I hope to be able to use it to help me make better beer!

[BlKtRe]

You didn't sound defensive at all. You made excellent rationalizations. I got lucky and traded out some shorter shanks for some long ones with my local brew pub. So I didnt have to purchase the 10" shanks. Go me! I also still get a first foamy pour. Just seems its just part of life at my house. An idea I have is to add a muffin fan into one end of your PVC beer line pass through's. AL tape the center one. This would move colder air into the coffin box and exit out a the pass through on the opposite end.

[gnef]

If I could have gotten an amazing deal on 20+ stainless 10 inch shanks, that would've definitely changed my plans!I actually like having the coffin box be warm, because I feel that if I can keep that air stagnant, it will help prevent energy loss. If I started chilling the coffin box, I would then need to add more insulation in there, and even then I would be losing a lot of energy there. We'll see if I get fed up with a first foamy pour or not, but right now I don't mind. I am just excited to be able to pour beer through a walk-in cooler in my basement!

[BlKtRe]

I actually like having the coffin box be warm, because I feel that if I can keep that air stagnant, it will help prevent energy loss. If I started chilling the coffin box, I would then need to add more insulation in there, and even then I would be losing a lot of energy there. We'll see if I get fed up with a first foamy pour or not, but right now I don't mind. I am just excited to be able to pour beer through a walk-in cooler in my basement!

Something to play with when you are bored then!

[tag]

I would try taking the sensor out of the vial. That will let the AC unit work in shorter lengths of time so less chance of freeze-up. YMMV.

[BlKtRe]

I would try taking the sensor out of the vial. That will let the AC unit work in shorter lengths of time so less chance of freeze-up. YMMV.

My experience says otherwise. Monitoring ambient air will cause the unit to run all the time. Going in/out, leaks from the box effects this in a negative way. Gel in a tube wont react to these sudden temp drops. Chilling the gel doesn't take long set for a 1* drop. My unit in gel runs probably 5-6x per day for no more than 5min each cycle.When I monitored ambient, I froze up all the time. Unless you have a perfectly sealed and insulated box, which is difficult to do, then I could see it. Until you walked in it.

Edited by BlKtRe, 26 July 2011 - 02:02 PM.

[tag]

My experience says otherwise. Monitoring ambient air will cause the unit to run all the time. Going in/out, leaks from the box effects this in a negative way. Gel in a tube won't react to these sudden temp drops. Chilling the gel doesn't take long set for a 1* drop. My unit in gel runs probably 5-6x per day for no more than 5min each cycle.When I monitored ambient, I froze up all the time. Unless you have a perfectly sealed and insulated box, which is difficult to do, then I could see it. Until you walked in it.

Well, that doesn't make sense to me. But I can't argue with experience. Was this after it reached equilibrium?

[HVB]

I would try taking the sensor out of the vial. That will let the AC unit work in shorter lengths of time so less chance of freeze-up. YMMV.

I will say my setup is a bit different I use a duct freezer to cool my "walk-in" but I recently put my probe in a vial with gel and it made a huge difference in the amount of time and how often the unit runs.

[tag]

Well, the total amount of time it runs to keep the cooler at whatever temperature has to be the same no matter which way you do it. Hanging it in the air will keep the air temperature more consistent because that is what you are controlling. The gel will take longer to cool by which time the air is colder than your setpoint. And then the air will have to get warmer than your setpoint because the gel takes longer to warm up. I'll continue to keep mine hanging in the air.Since it will take longer to chill the gel, I think you will have more freezeups than if it is a shorter cycle controlling the air. And I do want the fridge to chill after I have warmed up the air by opening the door. That's kinda the whole point.