146 replies to this topic

[gnef]

I've been talking with my wife about a walk-in cooler in the basement, and we have decided to budget in money for the next couple months in addition to what we have already saved towards this project. This will give me right around 1800 dollars to work with.This money also includes costs to build a work table and shelf to organize the things that will be moved because of the walk-in cooler, but I don't expect that work table and shelf to be more than 100 when it is all said and done, so a final budget around 1700 for the walk in cooler.I would like any and all feedback/suggestions/hints/criticism/etc.Here are my rough plans(all in my head, I have never tried any drawing programs):total exterior dimensions of 14ft long x 7ft high x 7 ft wide.Evenly split into two sections, each with an exterior door: one section for 34F cold storage, the other section for 62F for ale fermentation (both of these temperatures can be adjusted depending on what I am doing)I plan on doing 16inches between studs, each stud being a 2x6, and using R-19 batt insulation. I will do this for all walls, ceiling, and floor.interior walls and ceiling will use foam board (undecided on depth, most likely 3/4'' thick)then plastic board and caulking to seal it.exterior walls will simply have plywood.interior floor will use either just plywood or foam board then plywoodI have a friend who is an electrician, and most likely will be able to help me put in a new circuit or two for the cooler.Cooling unit is expected to be a 10-12k btu window AC unit with controls bypassed and using a love digital temperature controller.Another love digital temperature controller will control two fans and louvers to move cold air from the cold side to the fermenting side.I plan on using a simple door with jam to make framing easier, and then insulating the door with the foam board and plastic board. This will be for both sides.I intend on installing a light into each section, but I know I need to be careful of how I put it in because of condensation issues.I think my budget is ok, I know the insulation will be the most expensive part.What are your thoughts? Is there anything that I am missing or overlooking?

[BlKtRe]

Sounds good. Dont forget your moisture barrier. Id put the barrier on the inside of the studs covering your bat insulation then place your foam board over that.I love my dual zone walkin. You are gonna love yours too!Edit....I thought I needed the fans to move air between the two zones. Ended up I didnt need them as radiant air keeps the warmer side a perfect 55*.

[No Party JKor]

Overall, it sounds good. The budget sounds like plenty unless you're trying to make it look pretty.

[gnef]

What would you recommend as a vapor barrier? I was assuming that the foam board and silicone would work well enough as the vapor barrier, but it sounds like you would recommend some sort of plastic sheeting that would be the actual vapor barrier?Also, I've seen some designs where they only used glue to keep the foam board together. I was planning on using screws for this purpose, but would this weaken the vapor barrier considerably?I just did some research on the final interior ply I was intending on using: white polywall paneling. In some instructions, it says to: "Install using a moisture-curing, nonflammable latex adhesive using a notched trowel." So it seems like it is very similar to tile, just put the adhesive on the back and add pressure? Will this adhere well enough under cold temperatures, or should I still use screws somehow to hold it on?

[BlKtRe]

What would you recommend as a vapor barrier? I was assuming that the foam board and silicone would work well enough as the vapor barrier, but it sounds like you would recommend some sort of plastic sheeting that would be the actual vapor barrier?

I think I used 6 or 8 mil plastic sheeting.

Also, I've seen some designs where they only used glue to keep the foam board together. I was planning on using screws for this purpose, but would this weaken the vapor barrier considerably?

I used the roofing simplex nails with the cap to hold on the foam board. I did not use adhesive. Not sure if there is a price difference or not. The nails did go thru the vapor barrier. Guess I didnt think about this being a problem. Hasnt been in 5yrs so far that I know of. I also used the aluminum heating duct tape over the nails and in all corners of the foam board before applying the paneling. Air tight!

I just did some research on the final interior ply I was intending on using: white polywall paneling. In some instructions, it says to: "Install using a moisture-curing, nonflammable latex adhesive using a notched trowel." So it seems like it is very similar to tile, just put the adhesive on the back and add pressure? Will this adhere well enough under cold temperatures, or should I still use screws somehow to hold it on?

Yes, they make a water proof adhesive to apply the paneling. HD has it pretty cheap.Another good tip. Use screws to assemble the structure. This way if you ever decide to remove the cooler, its real simple to disassemble

[BlKtRe]

Oh, one more thing. Use insulation between the bottom sill plate and the concrete floor. Might even want to use treated for the sill plate. I just happened to know a guy that was tearing down a cedar deck. All my structure is cedar. Lucky me!

[BlKtRe]

Blktre, aren't you the guy that posted photos on the old board, about 5 years ago, that detailed your construction? Do you still have those?

I did post some things up back then yes. I probably can find a few pics if someone wants them.

[gnef]

Hmmmmm, regarding insulation between the sill plate and the foundation, do you mean that foam board? I didn't think that it would hold much pressure before breaking apart.Also, with the vapor barrier, did you staple it to the studs to affix it, and overlap sections to seal it? I am assuming you did the vapor barrier on all sides, ceiling, and bottom?I was originally thinking of making the floor, and then putting the side walls on top of the floor. Would this eliminate that need for the insulation below the sill plate? I was intending on insulating the floor with R-19 in between 2x6 lumber, and just plywood on top, then the walls on top of that.You should know I have no prior experience with framing and the proper way to do these things, so please assume I am completely ignorant of things that may seem obvious. I will do my best to understand what you are trying to say.It also sounds like you would recommend using treated lumber for the floor 2x6 framing?I was originally planning on just having the R-19 touching the slab directly for the floor insulation. Do you think I should go ahead and use plywood directly on the slab, then insulate? This would make it so the structure is more portable if I ever decide to move it, I just don't know if I would ever want to move it. If I move houses, I may just want to build a new walk-in, rather than trying to tear this one apart and putting it back together.

[BlKtRe]

Hmmmmm, regarding insulation between the sill plate and the foundation, do you mean that foam board? I didn't think that it would hold much pressure before breaking apart.

Not foam board, the thin stuff that comes in rolls.

Also, with the vapor barrier, did you staple it to the studs to affix it, and overlap sections to seal it? I am assuming you did the vapor barrier on all sides, ceiling, and bottom?

Exactly what I did!

I was originally thinking of making the floor, and then putting the side walls on top of the floor. Would this eliminate that need for the insulation below the sill plate? I was intending on insulating the floor with R-19 in between 2x6 lumber, and just plywood on top, then the walls on top of that.

If it was me, Id still go around the outside edges in between the bottom platform and the concrete with the sill plate insulation. Id still put the sill plate insulation under the side walls too. Stuff is super cheap and easy to install. It will make it that much tighter.

You should know I have no prior experience with framing and the proper way to do these things, so please assume I am completely ignorant of things that may seem obvious. I will do my best to understand what you are trying to say.

You might read up on general framing and look at pics. Your project is pretty easy. Just a platform and some side walls. You might consider putting in a header over each door to give it strength. It may or may not be needed.

It also sounds like you would recommend using treated lumber for the floor 2x6 framing?

Just use treated on the bottom part of the platform. Anything thats rests on concrete should be treated. The side walls can be pine.

I was originally planning on just having the R-19 touching the slab directly for the floor insulation. Do you think I should go ahead and use plywood directly on the slab, then insulate? This would make it so the structure is more portable if I ever decide to move it, I just don't know if I would ever want to move it. If I move houses, I may just want to build a new walk-in, rather than trying to tear this one apart and putting it back together.

This is where I'm having the most trouble. This is a very good question. Its entirely possible to get moisture under the floor either coming up thru the concrete, beer seepage, or even a accidental flood. Plywood sitting on the floor directly concerns me a little bit for rotting and mold reasons. It wouldn't take much moisture to cause problems. If it were me, Id put some of the insulation board directly on the floor then the batt over the top of that. Then your plywood base followed by your poly paneling. Of course seal all cracks and corners with caulking. For my outside door, I used a prehung exterior glass door. I like it because the door and glass are insulated and I can look thru it to check things without opening the door. You might also look around at those recycle places for the majority of your materials. I did this and only have a few hundred bucks in my actual box. Consider putting secondary regulators inside if you plan on throwing some taps thru the wall. Keep your co2 tank outside of the cooler. Preset your secondaries and you will not have to keep going in/out all the time to get things set for serving.Keep asking away. This is becoming a great thread!

[BlKtRe]

I also sheet rocked the outside of my box. Made a nice bezel for my Love controller(s) and flush mounted that into outside of the wall. I know exactly what my interior temps are just by glancing. As far as choosing a Love, consider your fans. You will need either two single stage or one dual stage Love to incorporate the fans if needed.Also, when using your Love just like anything else, dont ever monitor ambient air inside the box. What I did was take a WL Vial and put the gel from a freeze pack in the vial. I made up a short thermowell that went thru the vial lid for the Love sensor. Gel retains the perfect amount of temp. to gently cycle your AC unit and still maintain your set temp. Once you get this thing built, then we can talk about shock warm thermal mass, possible AC freeze up's and how to cure that.

[gnef]

Blktre, this is great information. Thanks for your patience!It sounds like I will use that thin insulation on top of the slab, and build on top of that insulation, and then use another layer between the base and walls.I plan on using 120V love controllers, the same exact ones I've been using for my chest freezers. I plan on using 120V fans and louvers, and just splitting the switched line to all four to turn them all on when I want air moved between the two sides (one set going each way to circulate the air between the two zones). I haven't looked for the fans or the louvers yet though, so that may still change at this point.I plan on using the long stainless probes for the love controllers, and doing like you said for the cold side, but measure the ambient air temp for the fermentation side, as I want a narrower range for the temperature fluctuations, especially during active primary fermentation. I haven't decided how to mount the love controllers yet, and want to make sure that I can replace the probes as well as the controllers easily if I need to.I am impressed your glass door is insulated enough to be useful for the walk-in cooler. I tend to think that will be more than what I want to spend for the door. I just want a simple pre-hung door that i can add insulation to.I do have a set of secondary regulators that I can wall mount, and I was planning on building one of the walls to be able to support shanks and an air line.I doubt I will drywall the exterior, especially since one long side will be close to the basement wall. I may add pegboard to some of the sides though so I can utilize that vertical space.

[BlKtRe]

but measure the ambient air temp for the fermentation side, as I want a narrower range for the temperature fluctuations, especially during active primary fermentation.

I'm one that nobody will ever convince that measuring ambient air is productive. Look at it this way. Ambient air can fluctuate alot. Your Love temp swing is set to 1*. So the Love feels this 1* drop, kicks in your fans. Now the cold side has dropped considerably so the AC unit cycles. You will be surprised at how close the cycles are. Add a warm thermo load or open the door. Pretty soon your AC unit just froze up. And it will happen. The closer the cycles, the better the chance for freeze up's. Unless you build two perfectly air tight chambers which is very, very difficult to do your going to get some temp loss. And I also bet your warmer zone will be colder than you think. Talking my experience for the last 5yrs or so on mine. But, like anything, once you got it built your going to have to fine tune it and find out the weak spots in the system. Some can be fixed, others you will have to compromise on. Cant wait to see some progress on this thing!

[gnef]

Haha. I see what you are saying. I plan on keeping the cold side temperature probe in gel, like you said, but the fermentation side measuring ambient air. I am not that concerned with the cycle time for the fans/louvers, but much more so of the AC unit, for the reasons you stated. I don't think this will cause too many problems, but like you said, I will have to fine tune it once it is built. The good thing about it though, is if I do need to put it in gel, it will be a very simple fix.Also, with those roofing nails, did that cause irregularities in the wall, and make it so there are bumps on the final ply of the interior? I am trying to make it so that it stays flat as much as possible.Progress will be slow on this project. I just bought the 2x4's for the shelf/table to clear away the stuff that is currently where the walk-in is going to go. I need to build this first before I can even start working on the walk-in. I also need to do a lot more research on framing. I may also need to get a new miter saw. The one I have right now is perfect for 2x4's, but won't be able to handle 2x6s, and I assume that trying to cut by hand with the circular saw is probably not the best idea to make sure I have square cuts. This may be a harbor freight purchase though, as I don't expect to have to use it too much in the future.edit - also, blktre, what is the size of your walk-in cooler in total, and for the fermentation side specifically?

Edited by gnef, 12 October 2010 - 03:59 PM.

[djinkc]

I'm one that nobody will ever convince that measuring ambient air is productive..................

I have to agree - being stubborn German/Irish I usually find out things don't work by experience - even after being told . My chamber is Mickey Mouse compared to Andy's and what you're building - but it will easily handle two 10+ gallons fermenting on each side. I don't have major freeze-up problems anymore. When I did it was having the sensor in ambient air. Or when I had the bulb in a thermowell sitting in 10+ gallons of beer. (trying to drop the temp significantly - 10df). On my cold side now I have an analog controller with the bulb wrapped in a freeze pack bag. That works like the little container blktre uses. On the warm side (another analog controller) - the bulb does go in a thermowell sitting in the fermenter. That works OK since the cold side has that freezer pack to buffer air temp. I'm usually pretty close temp wise but occasionally there might be a 12 df difference.Just guessing since I still don't have my Love controller in use, but I think you can program in a cycle time when you are trying to cool a big thermal load - to prevent freeze-ups.

Edited by djinkc, 12 October 2010 - 04:03 PM.

[BlKtRe]

edit - also, blktre, what is the size of your walk-in cooler in total, and for the fermentation side specifically?

6x8x8. My interior door is also glass. It came off a commercial beer fridge. Its 2" thick glass and must weigh 200#'s easily. I have the chamber split in half. This also gives me plenty of room in the warm side for fermenters, beer and wine cellar space, and room for the interior door to swing (outward, not inward). A pocket door would be a space saving improvement if you could figure a way to insulate it well enough.Something else. A muffin fan or or wiring the AC fan to run full time over the compressor of the AC unit should help with freeze ups.

Just guessing since I still don't have my Love controller in use, but I think you can program in a cycle time when you are trying to cool a big thermal load - to prevent freeze-ups.

Dan, mine is nothing special. Just bigger. That is all.The one thing I like about Love's are all the different settings vs the Johnsons and Ranco's. Specifically when used in conjunction with AC units that are not designed to go as low as we are asking them too.

[djinkc]

............Something else. A muffin fan or or wiring the AC fan to run full time over the compressor of the AC unit should help with freeze ups..............

Totally forgot about that one. It was going to be a PIA to rewire the fan on the AC so I have a nice 120v muffin fan running all the time over the cooling coils too. Made another big difference to prevent ice buildup. Funny how you forget after the build......... Anyway, that is another must do IMO.

[gnef]

Well, I started on the journey tonight by building the basic structure of my shelf and work table. Here are some pictures of what I want to do:This is a room in the basement. That wall is what I want to tear down, and the walk-in cooler will go through this section. You can also see some of my kegs - this is why I want to build the walk-in cooler.This is the other side of the wall. This is part of the garage. The walk-in cooler will extend through this area.This is a wider view, showing the breaker panel. The walk-in cooler will be along that cinder block wall (I plan to space the walk-in cooler wall away from the cinder block wall, just in case anything needs to be done to the cinder blocks), and will stop to the left of the breaker panel.This is showing a bit of what I've done tonight. I've moved things out of this corner of the garage, and placed my frame for the shelf/table in the corner.This is a better view of what I built tonight. I pretty much build everything out of 2x4's.Here is a look at the other side of the shelf, you can see a chest freezer and upright freezer along with some of my jockey boxes. These will be stored on the shelf, along with other tools.I plan on putting plywood on the frame soon (hopefully tomorrow, but we'll see if I have the time for that), and once I do, I can start clearing away the space I need for the walk-in cooler. Once I do that, I will finalize some drawings, finish research (this thread has definitely been helpful), and then start construction of the walk-in cooler itself. Hopefully I will be finished with this project within a few months. I don't want to rush things, but I also don't want to drag it out longer than it needs to be.

[BlKtRe]

So is part of the walkin going to extend into the garage?

[gnef]

Exactly. It should be around 14ft long, and that should give enough room next to the breaker panel, but as I was looking tonight, it may not be able to be as deep as I originally thought. When I did the original measurements, I think I measured from the cinder blocks, and I definitely do not want to build directly on the cinder block wall now, so I need to account for that space. I will try to do some new measurements tomorrow and see what kind of area I can devote to the walk-in cooler.Also, I designed my shelf/table so that I can slide my brew stand underneath it, and put my jockey boxes on the shelf when they are not in use, so hopefully this will also help to clean up the garage.Here is a rough drawing of the layout of the bottom floor:The walk-in cooler will go along the right side, where the green and blue outlines are - it will extend a bit further now than those original drawings. The shelf and table are going in the upper left corner, part of the two car garage.

Edited by gnef, 12 October 2010 - 08:04 PM.

[BlKtRe]

I think the size your wanting is really going to push the limits of your AC unit for the desired temps. Wait and see, but dont be disappointed.I also have a concern where you mount the AC unit. If it was me, Id mount it in the basement portion so the higher humidity in the garage doesn't post a freeze up problem. Id also have the entrance door on the warm side. Your all jacked up....way to go!