76 replies to this topic

[Genesee Ted]

I am pretty sure that they use a different strain for bottling than primary. Also, ditch the Belgian malts. They use Briess. I am at the brewery a couple of times a year and was told they switched to whatever domestic subs they could a while ago because the authentic stuff was too expensive.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I am pretty sure that they use a different strain for bottling than primary. Also, ditch the Belgian malts. They use Briess. I am at the brewery a couple of times a year and was told they switched to whatever domestic subs they could a while ago because the authentic stuff was too expensive.

I've found a few sources that say it's the primary strain and a testimonial that the yeast from the bottle tastes the same as wyeast forbidden fruit which is allegedly what ommegang uses. I don't really have a way to know if I'm right or not...

[earthtone]

Not sure what they use, forbidden fruit might be the ticket - I really enjoy the belgian character of 3787 though, more than anything else I have tried and in a previous post asking about doing lower grav brews with it I got lots of people saying go for it. You might wanna try out a belgian yeast you know you like if you're like me in not enjoying anything tooo funky... anyways, just a thought. Good luck!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've found a few sources that say it's the primary strain and a testimonial that the yeast from the bottle tastes the same as wyeast forbidden fruit which is allegedly what ommegang uses. I don't really have a way to know if I'm right or not...

Just confirmed with the head brewer that yes, it's the primary strain.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

The two recipes I have to work with:

1 lbs. Belgian Munich info
1 lbs. Belgian Caravienne info
1 lbs. Belgian Pale info
0.5 lbs. Belgian Aromatic info
6 lbs. Muntons Dry Light info
1.2 oz. Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 6.00 %AA) boiled 60 min. info
0.5 oz. Mt. Hood (Pellets, 5.00 %AA) boiled 15 min. info
Yeast : WYeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale info

cinnamon
orange peel

8 lbs Belgian Pils
1 lb Belgian Munich
1 lb Belgian Pale Ale
.5 lb Belgian Caravienne
.5 lb Belgian Aromatic
1.75 lb Home Made Candi Sugar

1 oz Styrian Goldings @ 60
.75 Saaz @ 15
.35 oz Corriander @ 10
.50 oz Sweet Orange Peel @ 10
.5 tsp Grains of Paradise @ 5

Wyeast 3522 | Belgian Ardennes

Mash In @ 154 for 60 Minutes

I'm thinking of something like this:

GRAIN/SPICES:
8.00 lbs Pils
1.00 lb Munich
1.00 lb Pale Ale
0.75 lb Caravienne
0.50 lb Aromatic

cinnamon
sweet orange peel (fresh)

mash around 152F (not sure if using sugar is right for this beer so I'm mashing lower to keep the final gravity lower)

then I was thinking I could zest my own orange peel for some sweet orange peel. Is 0.5oz sound right? Add in towards the end of boil?

for the cinnamon can I just use the ground up stuff I have in the spice cabinet? I also have cinnamon sticks (that apparently aren't ACTUALLY cinnamon according to Alton Brown). How much cinnamon would be reasonable? I can't really detect cinnamon in the beer so I'm thinking I should go pretty light. When should I add the cinnamon to the boil?

HOPS:
1.2 oz Styrian Goldings for 60 min
1.0 oz Czech Saaz for 15 min

I'm not 100% sure on the hop amounts yet b/c I'm not sitting in front of my brewing spreadsheet but I think this is about the right ballpark.

YEAST:
I'll be using the yeast I built up from some bottles of Rare Vos. I'll probably ferment in the low to mid 70s.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

would a little bit (about 4oz) of special B make sense in this recipe? I don't think I'm going to get the color of Rare Vos with the previously mentioned recipes.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

would a little bit (about 4oz) of special B make sense in this recipe? I don't think I'm going to get the color of Rare Vos with the previously mentioned recipes.

so i'm considering on my first time through on this I'm going to make a Rare Vos "Lite" and back off on the pilsen on maybe skip the spice additions to make something session-esque. Thoughts?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I am getting no love in this thread - what gives?

[lowendfrequency]

Now that we've determined the beer is spiced, I like the second recipe better. 1.75 lbs of candi sugar seems a bit excessive and I'd personaly mash lower. I think the stand out character in Rare Vos (other than the yeast) is the biscuit character, so I might bump up the aromatic malt a touch. with maybe a touch more aromatic. These are all wild guesses however, so take them with cautious skepticism

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Now that we've determined the beer is spiced, I like the second recipe better. 1.75 lbs of candi sugar seems a bit excessive and I'd personaly mash lower. I think the stand out character in Rare Vos (other than the yeast) is the biscuit character, so I might bump up the aromatic malt a touch. with maybe a touch more aromatic. These are all wild guesses however, so take them with cautious skepticism

which spices though? I think the sweet orange peel is a given. The other stuff I'm not sure. I agree I'd like to leave the sugar out and just mash lower.

[lowendfrequency]

Without having the beer in front of me, I'm just taking a stab in the dark... but I'd say .5oz sweet orange (maybe less), 1 gram paradise seeds and 1/2 gram of star anise, all @ 5-10 minutes. If I can say anything about this beer, it's that there isn't one flavor or aroma that dominates so I'd be very careful with the spices. Subtle is key. Err on the side of caution and under-doing it. Maybe don't kill the sugar all together, but go for more like a half pound and bump the pilsner (and maybe a touch more aromatic). You know, now I'm going to have to go out and buy some bottles of this... and I'll most likely end up attempting to clone it as well. Damn youuusss!!!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Without having the beer in front of me, I'm just taking a stab in the dark... but I'd say .5oz sweet orange (maybe less), 1 gram paradise seeds and 1/2 gram of star anise, all @ 5-10 minutes. If I can say anything about this beer, it's that there isn't one flavor or aroma that dominates so I'd be very careful with the spices. Subtle is key. Err on the side of caution and under-doing it. Maybe don't kill the sugar all together, but go for more like a half pound and bump the pilsner (and maybe a touch more aromatic). You know, now I'm going to have to go out and buy some bottles of this... and I'll most likely end up attempting to clone it as well. Damn youuusss!!!

can grains of paradise be bought at the grocery store? it's somewhat unlikely I'll be making a trip to the HB shop before I brew. I assume star anise can be had at the grocery store as well?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Maybe don't kill the sugar all together, but go for more like a half pound and bump the pilsner (and maybe a touch more aromatic).

Would you just use straight up granulated sugar or would you make inverted sugar with it? What would be appropriate?

[Rick]

Would you just use straight up granulated sugar or would you make inverted sugar with it? What would be appropriate?

Just use straight up table sugar. No need to use inverted or make inverted sugar, yeast naturally have invertase, the enzyme that will invert the sugars.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Just use straight up table sugar. No need to use inverted or make inverted sugar, yeast naturally have invertase, the enzyme that will invert the sugars.

Any info on using spices? I'm always looking for more ETA: also - should the sugar just be added around 20mins left in the boil??

[lowendfrequency]

Any info on using spices? I'm always looking for more ETA: also - should the sugar just be added around 20mins left in the boil??

I always add my sugars, honeys, maple syrups and agave during day 2 of primary ferment. A nice boost to the yeast, I feel it helps me ferment dryer and scrubs less of the aroma/flavor from your addition (although aroma/flavor isn't really an issue with clear sugars).

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I always add my sugars, honeys, maple syrups and agave during day 2 of primary ferment. A nice boost to the yeast, I feel it helps me ferment dryer and scrubs less of the aroma/flavor from your addition (although aroma/flavor isn't really an issue with clear sugars).

So given that the sugar is clean to begin with is it still advantageous to add it a couple days into primary? Do you boil the sugar in some water first?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

update:

GRAIN/SPICES:
9.00 lbs Pils
1.00 lb Munich
1.00 lb Pale Ale
0.75 lb Caravienne
0.75 lb Aromatic

0.5oz sweet orange peel (fresh)
0.3lb sugar towards end of boil

mash around 150F

HOPS:
1.2 oz Styrian Goldings for 60 min
1.0 oz Czech Saaz for 15 min

I'm not 100% sure on the hop amounts yet b/c I'm not sitting in front of my brewing spreadsheet but I think this is about the right ballpark.

YEAST:
I'll be using the yeast I built up from some bottles of Rare Vos. I'll probably ferment in the low to mid 70s.

I'm still iffy on spices so I'm just including the sweet orange peel for now.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

yet another update:

GRAIN/SPICES:
8.00 lbs Pils
1.00 lb Munich
1.00 lb Pale Ale
0.75 lb Caravienne
0.75 lb Aromatic
0.25 lb Special B

end of boil additions:
0.25 lb sugar (granulated)
0.5oz sweet orange peel (fresh)
0.25oz coriander (ground)
0.25oz cinnamon (ground)

mash around 149F

HOPS:
1.5 oz Styrian Goldings for 60 min
1.0 oz Czech Saaz for 15 min

YEAST:
I'll be using the yeast I built up from some bottles of Rare Vos. I'll probably ferment in the low to mid 70s.

SRM: 10.63
OG: 1.063
IBU: 33

Thoughts??? I'm still kind of shooting in the dark on the spices here. I used what I think is a small amount of most of them so hopefully even if I'm wrong it doesn't overwhelm the beer.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Also - if someone who commonly uses spices in beer could chime regarding the amounts I'm talking about using that would be helpful. I want to go kind of conservative on these amounts with the exception of the orange peel b/c I feel fairly confident that one is actually in the real recipe.