156 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

sorry - missed that one 

[denny]

It's tricky because the LO steps (if I were following them religiously) would not allow any finings.  The thought was that if you got clear wort into the fermenter (no trub!) that clarity would come... period.  Many of my LO beers without gel came out somewhat cloudy.  Eventually I was doing the LO steps but instead of spunding and not using finings I was using gel and force-carbing and those beers have not been clear.  In fact, some of them have been a terribly cloudy mess.  Among the things that I'm doing that could have a finger pointed at them:  Using this mash cap that is wrapped in foil.  Could there be some reaction between the wort and the foil?  Using SMB and AA in the mash as an O2 scavenger.  Absolutely no idea if that could cause clarity issues or not but it's been used in the same timeline as the cloudy beers.  Also, using yeast + sugar in the strike water to lower O2.  I mentioned this earlier and Pete is doing this without issue.  On my next three beers I could eliminate the mash cap, then eliminate the SMB + AA and finally eliminate the yeast + sugar.  The only other thing I'm doing that would be considered LO is purging the keg with the natural CO2 from fermentation and also doing a closed transfer from fermenter to keg and I can't see that causing cloudiness.  Any additional thoughts or AHA! moments would be great.  I'll keep updating this as I try things.  The latest batch that I made last week had no real changes except that I used a new blob of yeast (1099)... otherwise the other steps were all used.  

 

 

no, no reaction between wort and foil

 

What I'd do is go back to absolute basics...none of the LO stuff at all.  Then you'll know if something there could be the issue.  Instead of adding procedures, cut back.

[Big Nake]

no, no reaction between wort and foil

 

What I'd do is go back to absolute basics...none of the LO stuff at all.  Then you'll know if something there could be the issue.  Instead of adding procedures, cut back.

I'm going to cut them back one by one so I don't do too much at once and also so I will [hopefully] eventually know what the culprit was.  I mentioned the foil because someone said that foil and wort could react but eventually someone else mentioned that the wort would have to be at a very low pH for that to happen... like 3 or under.  I feel like it has to be one of these three things causing it... yeast + sugar in the strike water, the mash cap with the foil or the SMB + AA.  Nothing else seems like it would cause this.  I suppose it could be a combination of things but I made clear 30m boil beers both with and without BTB so I don't think it's either of those.

[denny]

I'm going to cut them back one by one so I don't do too much at once and also so I will [hopefully] eventually know what the culprit was.  I mentioned the foil because someone said that foil and wort could react but eventually someone else mentioned that the wort would have to be at a very low pH for that to happen... like 3 or under.  I feel like it has to be one of these three things causing it... yeast + sugar in the strike water, the mash cap with the foil or the SMB + AA.  Nothing else seems like it would cause this.  I suppose it could be a combination of things but I made clear 30m boil beers both with and without BTB so I don't think it's either of those.

 

If I was a betting kind of guy, I'd bet on the sugar+water or SMB+AA.  No idea why, but that's my bet.  Or grain...have you been using the same grain for the cloudy ones and different grain for the clear ones?

[Big Nake]

If I was a betting kind of guy, I'd bet on the sugar+water or SMB+AA.  No idea why, but that's my bet.  Or grain...have you been using the same grain for the cloudy ones and different grain for the clear ones?

The grains have been a mix... Briess Pilsen, Weyermann Barke Pils, Avangard Pils, Simpsons Golden Promise, Rahr Pale Ale, various Munich and Vienna brands including Avangard, Swaen, Weyermann and Best Malz.  There does not seem to be grain issue.  The yeast + sugar mix in the strike water is interesting because different brewers could use different ingredients and those ingredients could (COULD) react with something else in the water, etc. and variables seem possible but I'm getting into deep water here.  I'm also in deep water with the foil contact with wort.  I really have no idea if it could cause ANY issues let alone cloudiness.  

[positiveContact]

The grains have been a mix... Briess Pilsen, Weyermann Barke Pils, Avangard Pils, Simpsons Golden Promise, Rahr Pale Ale, various Munich and Vienna brands including Avangard, Swaen, Weyermann and Best Malz.  There does not seem to be grain issue.  The yeast + sugar mix in the strike water is interesting because different brewers could use different ingredients and those ingredients could (COULD) react with something else in the water, etc. and variables seem possible but I'm getting into deep water here.  I'm also in deep water with the foil contact with wort.  I really have no idea if it could cause ANY issues let alone cloudiness.  

 

a lot of people use aluminum kettles without issue.  what kind of yeast goes into the strike water?

[Big Nake]

Well, I cleaned and sanitized my draft lines this morning and I tweaked my recipe for a 60m boil.  Water is filtered, grains are weighed out and the pack of 1099 is swelling nicely.

 

Here is something else I thought of... forgive me for grabbing at straws but here goes:  One of the LO steps is to deoxygenate the water prior to heating for the mash.  To do that, some people suggested using yeast and sugar 2 hours prior to heating the water.  I have been doing this and I just use standard baking yeast (which was suggested) and table sugar.  I think I use GOLD STAR yeast.  When I transfer from the pot heating the water to the MT, I am absolutely sucking up some of that yeast.  Is there any way that this cheap baking yeast could just be floating around and not dropping?  Seems like another NO since the wort going into the fermenter is crystal clear.  I'm out of ideas and my head hurts now. 

[denny]

The grains have been a mix... Briess Pilsen, Weyermann Barke Pils, Avangard Pils, Simpsons Golden Promise, Rahr Pale Ale, various Munich and Vienna brands including Avangard, Swaen, Weyermann and Best Malz.  There does not seem to be grain issue.  The yeast + sugar mix in the strike water is interesting because different brewers could use different ingredients and those ingredients could (COULD) react with something else in the water, etc. and variables seem possible but I'm getting into deep water here.  I'm also in deep water with the foil contact with wort.  I really have no idea if it could cause ANY issues let alone cloudiness.  

 

Wort pH is not low enough (unless you screw up big time, which I doubt you have), to react with wort.  I have done decoction mashes in an AL pot FWIW, with no problems.

a lot of people use aluminum kettles without issue.  what kind of yeast goes into the strike water?

 

and what type of water?  As long as we're grasping at straws.

[Big Nake]

Wort pH is not low enough (unless you screw up big time, which I doubt you have), to react with wort.  I have done decoction mashes in an AL pot FWIW, with no problems.

Yes, I was leaning towards "this cannot be" but I honestly don't know.  If aluminum is not the issue, that would bring me to "yeast + sugar in the strike water" or the SMB + AA or... the lack of O2 itself.  Would a lack of O2 create cloudy beer?  I let the wort free-fall into the fermenter and also use 45-60 seconds of pure O2 in the fermenter as well so there is enough O2 for the yeast to get up and running it appears.

[positiveContact]

Yes, I was leaning towards "this cannot be" but I honestly don't know.  If aluminum is not the issue, that would bring me to "yeast + sugar in the strike water" or the SMB + AA or... the lack of O2 itself.  Would a lack of O2 create cloudy beer?  I let the wort free-fall into the fermenter and also use 45-60 seconds of pure O2 in the fermenter as well so there is enough O2 for the yeast to get up and running it appears.

 

pure O2 through a stone is the gold standard for hitting O2 saturation in the wort (at least for homebrewers).

[Big Nake]

and what type of water?  As long as we're grasping at straws.

My strike water is filtered tap water (Lake Michigan) that I have been using for 20+ years.  The numbers on it have always been very, very consistent and I have had it analyzed by Ward Labs 3-4 times over the years.  I filter it to remove the chlorine.  The yeast and sugar are added to the water about 2 hours before the water is heated for the strike (apparently two hours is how long it takes for the yeast & sugar to remove O2 from the water).  

[positiveContact]

My strike water is filtered tap water (Lake Michigan) that I have been using for 20+ years.  The numbers on it have always been very, very consistent and I have had it analyzed by Ward Labs 3-4 times over the years.  I filter it to remove the chlorine.  The yeast and sugar are added to the water about 2 hours before the water is heated for the strike (apparently two hours is how long it takes for the yeast & sugar to remove O2 from the water).  

 

with all the SMB you are putting in there you are def taking care of chlorine/chloramines.

 

maybe you could try a starch conversion test?  I've never done one so I can't speak to how good/useful they are.

 

https://www.winning-...rsion-test.html

[HVB]

I am sure it has been mentioned in this thread but I have not caught up with it all yet so I am going to suggest you go back and remove the LO additions and make a simple smash beer.  Maybe some 2 row and a hop you like and a simple 'Merican yeast and see what happens.

[Big Nake]

I am sure it has been mentioned in this thread but I have not caught up with it all yet so I am going to suggest you go back and remove the LO additions and make a simple smash beer.  Maybe some 2 row and a hop you like and a simple 'Merican yeast and see what happens.

I'm moving in that direction but I think I want to KNOW what the problem is so I know to avoid it in the future and possibly keep as many of the LO steps in place as possible and just avoid the one causing the issue.  On my next batch (probably this weekend) I think I will skip the yeast + sugar but keep the mash cap and keep the SMB + AA.  Then based on that I'll skip the SMB + AA and put the yeast + sugar back, etc. until I isolate it.  Thanks Drez.  

[Seven]

with all the SMB you are putting in there you are def taking care of chlorine/chloramines.

 

maybe you could try a starch conversion test?  I've never done one so I can't speak to how good/useful they are.

 

https://www.winning-...rsion-test.html

 

I was thinking this too. I've never done an iodine test but instead use Kai's charts to ensure full mash conversion. 

[Big Nake]

I was thinking this too. I've never done an iodine test but instead use Kai's charts to ensure full mash conversion. 

I realize I could kill the chlorine in a number of ways... Campden tablet, just leaving it out overnight, etc. but I have been filtering it for a long time and it's just what I have done.  I have never done an iodine test but I will do one on my next batch... if it stays the same red/amber color, the conversion is complete and if it turns black there is still starch present.  I have never done a mash that was less than one hour so my guess is that I have full conversion.  If I don't I would have to start wondering why.  But it's a quick, cheap test that may show me something.  

[denny]

My strike water is filtered tap water (Lake Michigan) that I have been using for 20+ years.  The numbers on it have always been very, very consistent and I have had it analyzed by Ward Labs 3-4 times over the years.  I filter it to remove the chlorine.  The yeast and sugar are added to the water about 2 hours before the water is heated for the strike (apparently two hours is how long it takes for the yeast & sugar to remove O2 from the water).  

 

sounds like we can rule out the water itself.  A little research shows that AL is safe from pH 4-9, so as suspected the mash pH should be no problem.

Edited by denny, 12 November 2019 - 12:35 PM.

[Big Nake]

sounds like we can rule out the water itself.

I think so, unless something really weird has been happening with it lately.  I would really like to know what is causing this so that's the path I'm going to take... remove things one by one and try to isolate the problem.  

 

The SMB + AA is a weird one too and I don't pretend to know everything that is happening here other than they are both O2 scavengers and when added, they're supposed to be your insurance policy because no matter what you do, you're going to be introducing O2 and these ingredients are supposed to be there to help when you do.  The LO guys originally had a certain dosing for these (x number of ppm) but they found that too much of these will produce a beer that literally smells like farts.  Pete mentioned "farty" beers here in the past.  So the ppm was lowered... 100ppm, 50, 25, etc.  I think I'm at 12ppm.  It's very low.  It is literally .2 grams of SMB and .2 grams of AA.  I continued to lower the amount until I no longer detected ANY of that sulphury character.  All that said, I would have a hard time believing that was the issue but it's possible.  What makes more sense, SMB + AA or yeast + sugar?  Denny, I know you said SMB + AA so maybe that will be the first thing I take out on the next batch.  Cheers.

[denny]

I think so, unless something really weird has been happening with it lately.  I would really like to know what is causing this so that's the path I'm going to take... remove things one by one and try to isolate the problem.  

 

The SMB + AA is a weird one too and I don't pretend to know everything that is happening here other than they are both O2 scavengers and when added, they're supposed to be your insurance policy because no matter what you do, you're going to be introducing O2 and these ingredients are supposed to be there to help when you do.  The LO guys originally had a certain dosing for these (x number of ppm) but they found that too much of these will produce a beer that literally smells like farts.  Pete mentioned "farty" beers here in the past.  So the ppm was lowered... 100ppm, 50, 25, etc.  I think I'm at 12ppm.  It's very low.  It is literally .2 grams of SMB and .2 grams of AA.  I continued to lower the amount until I no longer detected ANY of that sulphury character.  All that said, I would have a hard time believing that was the issue but it's possible.  What makes more sense, SMB + AA or yeast + sugar?  Denny, I know you said SMB + AA so maybe that will be the first thing I take out on the next batch.  Cheers.

 

Neither makes a lot of sense since you used them without issue in the past.  Pick one and leave it out next time.  If that doesn't work, eliminate the other one the next time. If neither works, eliminate the LO process entirely and see what happens.  That's how I'd approach it.

[Big Nake]

Okay, I'm going to use this next brewday (Friday) as an opportunity to use this Diamond yeast which means I'll have 1099 Whitbread and Diamond up and running at the same time.  I'm going to make another batch of this recipe for Big Bark Amber Lager.  There are a lot of people on the LO board using SMB + AA and although there are a few people there complaining about clarity, I feel like I'm going to test the yeast + sugar thing first.  No yeast + sugar to remove O2 in the water to start.  I'll use the mash cap and SMB + AA and see what happens.  On the batch after that (blonde ale with 1099) I'll go back to the yeast + sugar and take out the SMB + AA.  Then I'll pivot based on those results.  It would be sweet to be able to point to something very specific here that is causing the problem.