156 replies to this topic

[HVB]

I know it is not practical but if it was me I would brew the same batch with:

 

• No LO steps
• yeast and sugar mix
• No yeast and sugar and SMB+ AA
• All LO steps

At that point one of those would have to be clear.  I get the idea of different beers but they you are introducing different variables.

[Big Nake]

I know it is not practical but if it was me I would brew the same batch with:

 

• No LO steps
• yeast and sugar mix
• No yeast and sugar and SMB+ AA
• All LO steps

At that point one of those would have to be clear.  I get the idea of different beers but they you are introducing different variables.

Understood.  Since the start of 2018 I have been using all of the LO steps.  Some of those beers were spunded and had no finings and some of them were force-carbed and fined with a gel solution.  It's been almost 2 years since I have made a truly sparkling batch of beer so the fourth option there "All LO steps" has been beaten to death.  Also, the 1st option was basically done here for 18 years with mostly clear results.  The 2nd and 3rd options are what I will work with now.  If options 2 and 3 produce cloudy beer then the only LO steps I will take will be the underletting of the mash (using hi-temp tubing) and also the closed-transfer from fermenter-to-keg since they probably have benefits but no drawbacks.  

[denny]

Okay, I'm going to use this next brewday (Friday) as an opportunity to use this Diamond yeast which means I'll have 1099 Whitbread and Diamond up and running at the same time.  I'm going to make another batch of this recipe for Big Bark Amber Lager.  There are a lot of people on the LO board using SMB + AA and although there are a few people there complaining about clarity, I feel like I'm going to test the yeast + sugar thing first.  No yeast + sugar to remove O2 in the water to start.  I'll use the mash cap and SMB + AA and see what happens.  On the batch after that (blonde ale with 1099) I'll go back to the yeast + sugar and take out the SMB + AA.  Then I'll pivot based on those results.  It would be sweet to be able to point to something very specific here that is causing the problem.  

 

IMO, if you"re using different grist and yeast, that's too many variables.  How about making the same recipe with the same ingredients and just try the yeast+water against the SMB+AA?

[Big Nake]

IMO, if you"re using different grist and yeast, that's too many variables.  How about making the same recipe with the same ingredients and just try the yeast+water against the SMB+AA?

I hear what you're saying but let's look at that a second.  I use a lot of the same grains over and over and these malts have made me clear beer in the past.  If the issue is a bad lot of grain then I'm not that interested in it because it's temporary (plus... it can't be that because I have used different malts in the past 2 years).  I suppose I could make the same beer, one with SMB+AA and no yeast+sugar and then do the same beer with the opposite.  That I can do... but more than two batches of the same beer would be too much, IMO.  

[denny]

I hear what you're saying but let's look at that a second.  I use a lot of the same grains over and over and these malts have made me clear beer in the past.  If the issue is a bad lot of grain then I'm not that interested in it because it's temporary (plus... it can't be that because I have used different malts in the past 2 years).  I suppose I could make the same beer, one with SMB+AA and no yeast+sugar and then do the same beer with the opposite.  That I can do... but more than two batches of the same beer would be too much, IMO.  

 

Yeah, that's how I'd approach it.  2 batches of the same recipe and ingredients, one with one thing and the other with the other.  I guess when I experiment the answer is more important to me than the beer produced, so I don't really care much about how much of what I get.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, that's how I'd approach it.  2 batches of the same recipe and ingredients, one with one thing and the other with the other.  I guess when I experiment the answer is more important to me than the beer produced, so I don't really care much about how much of what I get.

If I make two batches of cloudy beer it would be surprising and disappointing but not the end of the world considering that I have had quite a bit of cloudy beer over the past 2 years. 

[Big Nake]

Brewday is set for tomorrow afternoon into the evening.  Supposed to be one of the better days around here... 38° and sunny.  The beer is simple:  6 lbs of Swaen Vienna malt and 4.5 lbs of Avangard dark Munich, 2 ounces of 3.8% German Hallertau for 30 minutes and another 1 ounce added at flameout and then Lallemand Diamond yeast.  Water is filtered and grains are weighed out.  I would not have enough of these two specific grains to make the next test batch so I just ordered another 10 lbs of each from LP so the second batch will use the exact same malts, hops and yeast.  First batch: No yeast + sugar.  Second batch:  No SMB + AA.  Based on those tests, I will determine what to do next.  

[denny]

Brewday is set for tomorrow afternoon into the evening.  Supposed to be one of the better days around here... 38° and sunny.  The beer is simple:  6 lbs of Swaen Vienna malt and 4.5 lbs of Avangard dark Munich, 2 ounces of 3.8% German Hallertau for 30 minutes and another 1 ounce added at flameout and then Lallemand Diamond yeast.  Water is filtered and grains are weighed out.  I would not have enough of these two specific grains to make the next test batch so I just ordered another 10 lbs of each from LP so the second batch will use the exact same malts, hops and yeast.  First batch: No yeast + sugar.  Second batch:  No SMB + AA.  Based on those tests, I will determine what to do next.

Unless they are from the same lots, they won't be the exact same malts.

[Big Nake]

Unless they are from the same lots, they won't be the exact same malts.

Understood.  But this issue I'm having is concentrated over the last 18-ish months so I'm not losing sleep over mild swings in malt lots... this is bigger than that.  One other thing I'm implementing today (unrelated) is a pre-chiller.  I realize it's a weird time of the year for that but I just built a 15' length of clear tubing with hose fittings on each end.  I'm going to scoop up some of this snow and then place the prechiller in a cooler and bury it in snow + some water to help get things chilled quicker.  Looking forward to seeing how this Diamond yeast will work as well.    

[positiveContact]

Unless they are from the same lots, they won't be the exact same malts.

 

have you experienced an issue like this relating to a specific sack of malt?  I've yet to have a problem but  you've been doing this longer than I have.

[Big Nake]

I'm not sure how much weight you guys put on iodine tests but I just did my FIRST and SECOND one ever.  When the mash started I just wanted to see the wort turn black and it did.  Then, 40 minutes into the mash I took another small spoonful, placed it on a white plate and dropped a couple drops of iodine and it stayed reddish-amber.  So I assume that's complete conversion.

 

So one question is:  When you have complete conversion is there any reason to continue to mash?  I have heard plenty of people say to mash for 60 or 90 or even 120.  I suppose they could be using Euro malts that are less modified and also multiple steps which may impact things.  This mash today is 60% Swaen Vienna and 40% Avangard Munich 2 and the single infusion mash temp was 150.7°.  Seems to be pretty well-modified.  

[positiveContact]

I'm not sure how much weight you guys put on iodine tests but I just did my FIRST and SECOND one ever.  When the mash started I just wanted to see the wort turn black and it did.  Then, 40 minutes into the mash I took another small spoonful, placed it on a white plate and dropped a couple drops of iodine and it stayed reddish-amber.  So I assume that's complete conversion.

 

So one question is:  When you have complete conversion is there any reason to continue to mash?  I have heard plenty of people say to mash for 60 or 90 or even 120.  I suppose they could be using Euro malts that are less modified and also multiple steps which may impact things.  This mash today is 60% Swaen Vienna and 40% Avangard Munich 2 and the single infusion mash temp was 150.7°.  Seems to be pretty well-modified.  

 

I believe that even if you have converted starches to sugars the sugars can be broken down further still making the wort more fermentable still.  I could be wrong on that though.

[Big Nake]

Anyone have a feel for how long this Diamond yeast takes to get up & running?  It's been about 14 hours at this point and I just gave the fermenter a bit of a swirl but I do not have any activity yet.  I got the most lovely yeast aroma when I pitched it into this clear, amber-colored wort and I have high hopes for this beer.  

[positiveContact]

I think it was over 36 hours for me. Beer turned out great though.
Keep in mind I don't rehydrate and I pitched half what the manufacturer suggests

[Big Nake]

I have not used dry yeast in awhile.  It's quite foreign to me.  According to my notes I used S-189 in September of 2017 and S-04 in February of 2017.  Both of those were probably a Plan B.  

[positiveContact]

I have not used dry yeast in awhile.  It's quite foreign to me.  According to my notes I used S-189 in September of 2017 and S-04 in February of 2017.  Both of those were probably a Plan B.  

 

these days I just let the pack of yeast warm up while I get the wort chilled.  no rehydrating, no extra O2 other than what gets introduced while I drain into my fermentor (which is about 8-9' but still not like pumping pure O2 in there).  I just sprinkle it on top and seal it up.  I think you'll like diamond lager other than the nerves of waiting for signs of life if your fermentation goes like mine did.  hard to argue with the final product though.  it attenuated very fully and has a nice "beery" taste that you seem to like.  I like it too!

[Big Nake]

Okay, I have activity.  Looks like about 18½ hours from pitch so that's good... nice to know the yeast is viable.  

 

On a related note, I started thinking about one other thing that has been going on since my LO steps were taken.  I have had this in mind since the start but I'm not sure how much control I have over it.  When the fermenter is placed in the fridge there is a length of tubing going from the fermenter, through the door and into the OUT side of a keg connected with a liquid-out quick disconnect.  I take that assembly apart and clean and sanitize it after each use and then before the next use the disconnect and the length of tubing have hot Oxi solution sent through them and then either a Starsan or iodophor solution (5 gallons each to drain the keg).  But knowing exactly what's inside one of those QDs might be dicey.  I have a long "pipe cleaner" kind of thing for cleaning the inside of the silicone tubing but even that might be questionable.  These beers never seemed contaminated so I might just be looking everywhere now but beer and yeast flow through these QDs and are certainly capable of harboring something.  I was at my LHBS yesterday to get a part for this prechiller I made and I picked up four new QDs while I was there just in case.  

[Bklmt2000]

Okay, I have activity.  Looks like about 18½ hours from pitch so that's good... nice to know the yeast is viable.  

 

On a related note, I started thinking about one other thing that has been going on since my LO steps were taken.  I have had this in mind since the start but I'm not sure how much control I have over it.  When the fermenter is placed in the fridge there is a length of tubing going from the fermenter, through the door and into the OUT side of a keg connected with a liquid-out quick disconnect.  I take that assembly apart and clean and sanitize it after each use and then before the next use the disconnect and the length of tubing have hot Oxi solution sent through them and then either a Starsan or iodophor solution (5 gallons each to drain the keg).  But knowing exactly what's inside one of those QDs might be dicey.  I have a long "pipe cleaner" kind of thing for cleaning the inside of the silicone tubing but even that might be questionable.  These beers never seemed contaminated so I might just be looking everywhere now but beer and yeast flow through these QDs and are certainly capable of harboring something.  I was at my LHBS yesterday to get a part for this prechiller I made and I picked up four new QDs while I was there just in case.  

 

Any place that can harbor nasties will harbor nasties. 

 

If nothing else, consider it an investment in eliminating another vector for possible contamination issues.

[positiveContact]

what kind of QDs are you talking about here?  as for silicone tubing you can boil that in water.  I do this regularly for any silicone that touches my wort/beer on the cold side.  there will be no survivors.  nuke it from orbit.  etc.

[Big Nake]

 

I feel like taking these apart and cleaning/sanitizing them would give one a good sense that they were cootie-free but I guess you never know.  Before I did it this way I would do open transfers from fermenter to keg using a racking cane and tubing and I suppose the cootie factor could be the same there.  Not sure.  I'm just looking at everything.  

 

 

Any place that can harbor nasties will harbor nasties. 

Truth.