156 replies to this topic

[neddles]

I would at least try it. Ideally do the same beer twice once at 30 and once at 60 with the same malt batches. But I get that's not too realistic. So just do a 60 min boil and see. This issue has been a bugger in your brewery for a while now.

[Big Nake]

Okay, I will see if I can get a brewday in on Sunday and I'll do a 60m boil.  I'll have to revise my recipe for the bittering addition.  Cheers and thanks. 

[neddles]

Okay, I will see if I can get a brewday in on Sunday and I'll do a 60m boil.  I'll have to revise my recipe for the bittering addition.  Cheers and thanks. 

 

Yeah, good luck. The nice part about this experiment is that at the very worst you lose 30 minutes and your beer turns out the same as it's been, not ruined.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, good luck. The nice part about this experiment is that at the very worst you lose 30 minutes and your beer turns out the same as it's been, not ruined.

True.  Over on the LO board there were a few comments made from some members about 30m boils and a few people said, "Don't do 30m boils... you're asking for trouble".  But I never got any kind of explanation on that and up to that point I had made some very nice 30m boil beers.  I still don't know what they meant by that just as I still don't know the reason for this cloudiness.  Tomorrow I'll also do the line cleaning.

[HVB]

I did a 60m boil recently and it was cloudier than any of my 30m boils. Proved to me that for my system there is no benefit to the longer boil.

Edited by HVB, 01 November 2019 - 06:46 PM.

[neddles]

I think we have talked about this but I have not doubt it could be a system dependent variable.

[Big Nake]

I did a 60m boil recently and it was cloudier than any of my 30m boils. Proved to me that for my system there is no benefit to the longer boil.

Oooh, that's interesting.  I remember you saying that you may do a 60m boil sometime soon but I didn't see that you did one.  So are you running into cloudy beers too?  Do you know why the 60m beer was cloudy?  I'm trying to wrap my head around the possibility of some of the LO steps or maybe just the very absence of O2 in the beer impacting clarity.  That sounds weird but I have gone from "not very LO" to "trying to do everything to get as LO as possible" to "some amount of LO steps" and only my "not very LO" beers were clear. 

[MyaCullen]

still using Whirlfloc?

[Big Nake]

still using Whirlfloc?

Yes sir.  Crystal clear wort going into the fermenter.  Thanks for reminding me... I meant to say that all other aspects are the same including the whirfloc.  If I didn't use it, the wort going into the fermenter would be cloudy which is one reason I don't understand what's happening.  Clear wort + healthy and active yeast + quick start times + a bit of time for yeast to settle + a chill-down and a gel solution treatment = cloudy beer.  Wha hapeen? 

[HVB]

Oooh, that's interesting. I remember you saying that you may do a 60m boil sometime soon but I didn't see that you did one. So are you running into cloudy beers too? Do you know why the 60m beer was cloudy? I'm trying to wrap my head around the possibility of some of the LO steps or maybe just the very absence of O2 in the beer impacting clarity. That sounds weird but I have gone from "not very LO" to "trying to do everything to get as LO as possible" to "some amount of LO steps" and only my "not very LO" beers were clear.

Only cloudy beers I have are the ones that I want to be.... NE style hoppy beers.

[Big Nake]

Only cloudy beers I have are the ones that I want to be.... NE style hoppy beers.

Ah, okay... you're not having cloudiness issues with normal beers.  Was there a reason why you went back and tried a 60m boil?  Were you experimenting or troubleshooting or what?

[HVB]

Ah, okay... you're not having cloudiness issues with normal beers. Was there a reason why you went back and tried a 60m boil? Were you experimenting or troubleshooting or what?

Just trying it out to see if I was missing anything. Showed me I was loosing time.

[Big Nake]

Well, I cleaned and sanitized my draft lines this morning and I tweaked my recipe for a 60m boil.  Water is filtered, grains are weighed out and the pack of 1099 is swelling nicely.

 

Here is something else I thought of... forgive me for grabbing at straws but here goes:  One of the LO steps is to deoxygenate the water prior to heating for the mash.  To do that, some people suggested using yeast and sugar 2 hours prior to heating the water.  I have been doing this and I just use standard baking yeast (which was suggested) and table sugar.  I think I use GOLD STAR yeast.  When I transfer from the pot heating the water to the MT, I am absolutely sucking up some of that yeast.  Is there any way that this cheap baking yeast could just be floating around and not dropping?  Seems like another NO since the wort going into the fermenter is crystal clear.  I'm out of ideas and my head hurts now. 

[pkrone]

I doubt it.   The yeast are all dead by the time you heat to strike and their remains shouldn't cause cloudiness.  I use the yeast de-ox on all my 10 gallon batches and haven't had a problem.  I do a 60 minute boil and whirlpool pretty much the entire time I'm chilling. 

[positiveContact]

I’m placing my bets on chill haze. Too much protein in the wort that comes out of solution when you chill the beer.

The step mash is a proposed solution to the unconverted starch problem noted earlier in the thread. It won’t do anything for chill haze. The step matches that I have used are usually around 147 or 148 for 30 to 40 minutes, and then 160 to 162 for another 15 or 20 minutes Each batch of malt is different but some will have starches that don’t gelatinize and convert at temperatures as low as 148 to 150..

My clarity issues went away when I switched from a low vigor 30 minute boil to a low vigor 60 minute boil. I get that you have made a lot of clear beer with 30 minute boils, but the protein content of a malt is also variable with each batch or bag. It’s possible that you’re getting away with it sometimes and not others.

Am I convinced that chill haze is your problem? No. But that’s the first problem I would try to solve Were it mine to solve.

Hopefully all of that makes sense.

 

I'm confused ken isn't pointing this out again but he claimed in the original post that the clarity does not improve when he lets the beer warm up.  this would mean probably not chill haze right??

[Big Nake]

So this morning when I was cleaning and sanitizing the draft lines I noticed that the keg on faucet #2 felt like it had about 2 ounces of beer left in it.  I replaced it with a keg of [my version of] Paulaner Original Munich Lager.  This beer was brewed on August 15 so it's been lagering for a good 8 weeks now.  It was also the unbelievable EIGHTH batch of beer that I made with a blob of 2124.  This is the second pull from the keg...

 

 

This makes things very hard to troubleshoot because I can already tell that the vast majority of this keg is going to be very clear.  All of these batches (maybe the last 12-15) have all been done exactly the same way although some used 2124, some had 2278 and some had 1056.  pH control was good, crush was with the same [new-to-me] 3-roller Crankenstein, water was the same, trifecta, etc.  I'm at a loss. 

[neddles]

I'm confused ken isn't pointing this out again but he claimed in the original post that the clarity does not improve when he lets the beer warm up. this would mean probably not chill haze right??

Possibly not chill haze. Depends on how much protien came out of solution and how long he left it warm.

[Big Nake]

This latest batch is fermenting nicely and I have great expectations for it.  The wort going into the fermenter was very clear.  Let me ask this:  If the wort going into the fermenter was clear but the beer ends up cloudy does that mean that the issue could only be from the fermentation point or onward?  IOW, my mash temp and pH were fine, my crush was fine, my boil was fine and everything that happened prior to the wort going into fermenter was fine... is that reasonable?  If so, other than contamination, what else would create cloudiness at that point?  All of these beers went into the fermenter clear so I'll guess my assumption is incorrect and it could still be something off earlier in the process. 

[Bklmt2000]

This latest batch is fermenting nicely and I have great expectations for it.  The wort going into the fermenter was very clear.  Let me ask this:  If the wort going into the fermenter was clear but the beer ends up cloudy does that mean that the issue could only be from the fermentation point or onward?  IOW, my mash temp and pH were fine, my crush was fine, my boil was fine and everything that happened prior to the wort going into fermenter was fine... is that reasonable?  If so, other than contamination, what else would create cloudiness at that point?  All of these beers went into the fermenter clear so I'll guess my assumption is incorrect and it could still be something off earlier in the process. 

 

If this batch comes out cloudy, then the culprit is somewhere in the post-boil part of the process. 

 

Contamination or the yeast, or some combo of the 2, are the most likely reasons.

[Big Nake]

If this batch comes out cloudy, then the culprit is somewhere in the post-boil part of the process. 

 

Contamination or the yeast, or some combo of the 2, are the most likely reasons.

Thanks.

 

As I think about this and consider the various LO steps that are "new"... there is the addition of sodium metabisulfate and also ascorbic acid which are oxygen scavengers and it's a very small amount that is added to the strike water.  I have never heard anyone suggest that those two ingredients cause cloudiness.  Then there is my "mash cap" which is made of 1" thick foam board that I got at the HD and then covered with aluminum foil.  I posted a pic of that on the LO board and got the thumbs-up.  I think Schwanz mentioned that foil being in contact with wort could cause it to break down but eventually it was mentioned that the wort would have to be at a very low pH (around 3) so I ruled that out.  160° strike water is sent through hi-temp tubing and into the MT and I assume that's reasonable.  Would that tubing start to break down at that temp?  Seems unlikely.  Otherwise the finished beer is sent out of the fermenter through more of the same hi-temp tubing into an waiting clean, sanitized and O2-purged keg.  I'm also starting the whole process off with low-O2 water where yeast and sugar are used to lower the O2 levels.  Could the very absence of O2 cause cloudiness?  The current beer will be sent to the keg either Thursday or Friday of this next week and I will make another batch over the weekend.  The beer will be chilled, gelled and force-carbed and then early the following week I'll check it.  I can't see what else it could be.  If the wort going into the fermenter was cloudy I might be looking at earlier steps... but it's very clear.