156 replies to this topic

[Bklmt2000]

I have to say it's a mysterious issue for sure.  Are they all gel'ed?  Perhaps the gelatin is old but I can't imagine that based on the amount of beer you make.  You must go through a bunch of it.

 

As long as gelatin stays dry, it lasts nearly forever.

[Big Nake]

I have to say it's a mysterious issue for sure.  Are they all gel'ed?  Perhaps the gelatin is old but I can't imagine that based on the amount of beer you make.  You must go through a bunch of it.

Everything is gelled as I have always done.  The gel is stored cool, dark, dry, sealed, etc. and it's always dry when I go to use it for making a solution.

[Bklmt2000]

Do you ferment in plastic buckets, and if so, how old are they?

[Big Nake]

Frustrating for sure, Ken.   It's gotta be a process thing, though.  Maybe consider taking a pic of a wort sample that you're putting in the fermenter and compare its clarity to the finished beer.   If you're getting clear wort into the fermenter and ending up with cloudy beer it's bound to be something downstream from yeast pitch causing the cloudiness. 

This is what I'm assuming but what could it be?  Wort going into the fermenter is clear.  Primary goes as usual (in a fridge set to 50° for lagers, about 62° for ales).  The fermenter may sit at room temp for some amount of time after primary is done so I know that fermentation is complete and then the beer is closed-transferred to the keg which may also sit at room temp if there is no room in the fridge but otherwise it goes into a 35° fridge to chill, then gel solution added and eventually force-carbed.  A lot of this is the same as it's always been.

[Big Nake]

Since we're doing process of elimination, here's another ?:

 

After the primary, how cold are you cold-crashing your beers and for how long?  Also, it might not be a bad idea to deploy a thermometer and check your lagering/cold-crashing fridge temps.

 

Also, are the primary fermentation temps in range, not overly-high?

Cold-crashing/conditioning/lagering has been as short as six weeks and as long as three months.  They sit at 35° or so.  I keep cups of water in the "on-deck" fridge and also the serving fridges.  Then I use the Thermapen to check the temp of that water.  All of this structure has been in place for years so again... it doesn't "feel like it".  The low-O2 processes are more current changes so that's why I'm sniffing around those more.  See above for the fermentation temps.  I like to keep those on the cooler side of the range and that's been that way for years as well.  One other minor recent change is that I no longer make ales in a tub of cool water.  That worked well for me but now everything is fermented in a temp-controlled fridge.  Also, I just smacked a pack of 1099 (another high-floccer) hoping to make something Sunday or possibly Monday.  Finally... there was no pattern in terms of the beers made with 1056, 2124 and 2278... it was not like the first batches were clearer and they progressively got cloudier.  They were cloudy from the start of the keg and gradually got clearer until they were almost acceptable and then the keg kicked.  Guys, thanks for the replies.  

Do you ferment in plastic buckets, and if so, how old are they?

Yes, plastic fermenters with ports.  One is older but hadn't been used in MANY years so it has low miles on it.  The other is less than a year old.  

[positiveContact]

I think you need to figure out if this is purely sediment you are picking up or if the whole volume of liquid is actually somewhat cloudy/hazy and you just happen to notice some additional sediment pickup sometimes.  from what you've posted I can't tell which is situation it is.

[Big Nake]

Here's a thought:  I mentioned in another thread that I thought some of my recent batches weren't finishing dry enough.  I am clearly pitching enough yeast because ALL of the harvested yeast is pitched.  But is it possible that the yeast isn't getting enough oxygen because of my low-O2 processes?  Symptom one would be that the yeast doesn't get the FG low enough (due to lack of O2) and then symptom 2 (this is a stretch) that a lack of O2 also keeps the yeast from floccing?  That probably sounds nuts, right?  I allow the wort to fall into the fermenter creating some O2 and I also oxygenate with pure O2 with a stone for 45-60 seconds before the fermenter is closed up.  Am I sniffing around the wrong hydrant?  

[positiveContact]

that seems like it would be plenty of O2.

[Big Nake]

Here's another:

 

 

Another cause could be an incomplete starch conversion. This is more prevalent in all-grain brewing but can also happen in extract during the steeping process. If your mash temperature was not high enough during the mash or you did not mash long enough for the specific malt you were using it could cause some starches to remain unconverted in the wort and the beer to be cloudy. Mashing for longer and watching your mashing temperatures can cure this.

 

This I have never heard.  I have actually been lowering my mash temps into the 148-149° range to see if I could get crisper finishes in the beer.  My guess is that I also suffer from some lowering of the temp over the 60-minute mash time since I'm just using a cooler.  I used to mash between 150-152° and this seems like a trivial thing (I can hear Denny now saying that the difference is too small) but I have been mashing at a lower temp and I have had cloudy beers.  

[Poptop]

Definitely possible.  I usually strike around 155 and lose typically 3 after mashin.  9 out of 10 of my batches are mashed overnight however.  The temp is usually around 140 in the morning.  Safe to say I convert.  Try a batch at 155?

[Big Nake]

I could certainly try to mash a little higher and I could also try to mash a little longer too.  I have no real idea that this is the issue but it DOES line up.  The difference is very small though and it would be a really fine line between 150-151 and maybe 148-149... seems too fine.  

[Poptop]

Yea, I'd side with the anticipated Denny comment on that.

[Big Nake]

I can't think of anything else, really.  I have used a lot of the same grains that I have used in the past.  I did get this monster of a 3-roller mill earlier this summer/spring which I posted about (and it does seem to crush the grains well) but I believe that this cloudy issue predates using that mill.  Pretty sure my bud who used this mill made very good and clear beer with it too and he uses the same water that I do.  There was an article about getting a good, quick chill otherwise hazy beer would result but that's never been an issue... at least nothing has changed there.  

[positiveContact]

Yea, I'd side with the anticipated Denny comment on that.

 

agreed.  I've mashed that low plenty of times.

[neddles]

Here's another:



This I have never heard. I have actually been lowering my mash temps into the 148-149° range to see if I could get crisper finishes in the beer. My guess is that I also suffer from some lowering of the temp over the 60-minute mash time since I'm just using a cooler. I used to mash between 150-152° and this seems like a trivial thing (I can hear Denny now saying that the difference is too small) but I have been mashing at a lower temp and I have had cloudy beers.

I have said this before. The predictability and the knowledge that you will completely convert when doing a step mash is worth the small extra step in the process.

I’ll add this too. My suspicion is that it is chill haze. One of the things that is changing between the time you put clear wort in the fermenter and when you pour your beer is the temperature.

Edited by neddles, 01 November 2019 - 02:05 PM.

[Big Nake]

I have said this before. The predictability and the knowledge that you will completely convert when doing a step mash is worth the small extra step in the process.

I assume that you and I are close to being in the same boat because you're doing BIAB... so can you tell me what step mashes you're doing (145x30 and then 160x60 or whatever)?  I know you said you had some clarity issues around the time we were all doing some of the low-O2 steps.  I also know you said you thought they were attributed to low boil intensity.  Whatever happened with that and where does the step mash come into play in terms of your clarity?  My system is NOT very conducive to doing step mashes but I would try it just to see what happens.  Also... I should mention that single-infusion mashes have produced A LOT of clear beer here.   

[neddles]

I’m placing my bets on chill haze. Too much protein in the wort that comes out of solution when you chill the beer.

The step mash is a proposed solution to the unconverted starch problem noted earlier in the thread. It won’t do anything for chill haze. The step matches that I have used are usually around 147 or 148 for 30 to 40 minutes, and then 160 to 162 for another 15 or 20 minutes Each batch of malt is different but some will have starches that don’t gelatinize and convert at temperatures as low as 148 to 150..

My clarity issues went away when I switched from a low vigor 30 minute boil to a low vigor 60 minute boil. I get that you have made a lot of clear beer with 30 minute boils, but the protein content of a malt is also variable with each batch or bag. It’s possible that you’re getting away with it sometimes and not others.

Am I convinced that chill haze is your problem? No. But that’s the first problem I would try to solve Were it mine to solve.

Hopefully all of that makes sense.

[Big Nake]

I’m placing my bets on chill haze. Too much protein in the wort that comes out of solution when you chill the beer.

The step mash is a proposed solution to the unconverted starch problem noted earlier in the thread. It won’t do anything for chill haze. The step matches that I have used are usually around 147 or 148 for 30 to 40 minutes, and then 160 to 162 for another 15 or 20 minutes Each batch of malt is different but some will have starches that don’t gelatinize and convert at temperatures as low as 148 to 150..

My clarity issues went away when I switched from a low vigor 30 minute boil to a low vigor 60 minute boil. I get that you have made a lot of clear beer with 30 minute boils, but the protein content of a malt is also variable with each batch or bag. It’s possible that you’re getting away with it sometimes and not others.

Am I convinced that chill haze is your problem? No. But that’s the first problem I would try to solve Were it mine to solve.

Hopefully all of that makes sense.

Okay, thanks for that.  I assume you're just taking an amount of water that you have calculated, bringing it to a certain [high] temp and then adding it until you reach your desired next step temp.  I did this a number of times (Hochkurz mash) and did not care for the process nor did I notice any difference in the beer and at that time my clarity was already good so I stopped doing them.  If this is an issue with various brands and lots of malts it's wild because these cloudy batches have been made with at least 4-5 difference base malts including Briess Pilsen, Barke Pils, Avangard Pils, Golden Promise and Rahr Pale Ale malt.  For my next two batches I may do one with a higher single infusion and the other with the step mash you outlined... something like 148 for 40 minutes and 160 for 20.  Thanks for that.  Much appreciated. 

[neddles]

Okay, thanks for that.  I assume you're just taking an amount of water that you have calculated, bringing it to a certain [high] temp and then adding it until you reach your desired next step temp.  I did this a number of times (Hochkurz mash) and did not care for the process nor did I notice any difference in the beer and at that time my clarity was already good so I stopped doing them.  If this is an issue with various brands and lots of malts it's wild because these cloudy batches have been made with at least 4-5 difference base malts including Briess Pilsen, Barke Pils, Avangard Pils, Golden Promise and Rahr Pale Ale malt.  For my next two batches I may do one with a higher single infusion and the other with the step mash you outlined... something like 148 for 40 minutes and 160 for 20.  Thanks for that.  Much appreciated. 

 

You're welcome.

 

I brew in a bag so I can direct fire, no need to add hot water. 

 

Also, I agree that with as many malts you have used it's not likely to be some variability in the malt. More likely it's in your process. If it were mine, the first corrective variable I would introduce would be that short boil.

[Big Nake]

You're welcome.

 

I brew in a bag so I can direct fire, no need to add hot water. 

 

Also, I agree that with as many malts you have used it's not likely to be some variability in the malt. More likely it's in your process. If it were mine, the first corrective variable I would introduce would be that short boil.

Really?  I smacked a pack of 1099 this afternoon and I may brew Sunday (depending on other stuff) so are you suggesting that I go with a 60m boil?  It's probably been 2-3 years since I did one and I'll tell you what... the 30m boil is now starting to seem long to me.    But if you're telling me that moving from 30m to 60m made the difference I will do it.  The only issue I have is that I have had clear beer with 30m boils so I wouldn't have that AHA! moment.