517 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I have good pH control. I shoot for 5.2 to 5.3 in the mash and I make sure my sparge water is 5.5 or lower. Kettle pH is typically between 5.2 and 5.4. These are just thoughts of mine and nothing more. I served this pale bock at the gathering which was made pre-brewtan and it was a very nice beer and everyone seemed to enjoy it. Meanwhile I had a blonde ale on tap a couple weeks ago that I had high hopes for and it was really a trainwreck... cloudy, sharp, astringent, not clean or smooth. I ferment my ales low to avoid esters or phenols and I try to use the right water composition for the style, etc. The brewtan beers I have made so far have a good variety so I plan to go to school on them and see how the brewtan may alter my processes. I have pale, dark, malty, hoppy, ale, lager all made with Brewtan so far and that will help going forward.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I have good pH control. I shoot for 5.2 to 5.3 in the mash and I make sure my sparge water is 5.5 or lower. Kettle pH is typically between 5.2 and 5.4. These are just thoughts of mine and nothing more. I served this pale bock at the gathering which was made pre-brewtan and it was a very nice beer and everyone seemed to enjoy it. Meanwhile I had a blonde ale on tap a couple weeks ago that I had high hopes for and it was really a trainwreck... cloudy, sharp, astringent, not clean or smooth. I ferment my ales low to avoid esters or phenols and I try to use the right water composition for the style, etc. The brewtan beers I have made so far have a good variety so I plan to go to school on them and see how the brewtan may alter my processes. I have pale, dark, malty, hoppy, ale, lager all made with Brewtan so far and that will help going forward.

 

Final PH of the beer though? I know yeast will generally bring it into the 3.5-4.5 range (I think). If the final product is high in that range it could effect mouthfeel. You have a meter, it's an easy check.

[Big Nake]

Final PH of the beer though? I know yeast will generally bring it into the 3.5-4.5 range (I think). If the final product is high in that range it could effect mouthfeel. You have a meter, it's an easy check.

Yeah, that's never been a problem. I have measured finished beer at around 4.1 to about 4.4 numerous times. I'm not referring to "mouthfeel", I'm referring to harsh, sharp, unsmooth beer. Where would you envision the pH being to cause that?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Yeah, that's never been a problem. I have measured finished beer at around 4.1 to about 4.4 numerous times. I'm not referring to "mouthfeel", I'm referring to harsh, sharp, unsmooth beer. Where would you envision the pH being to cause that?

 

Smoothness is a feeling not a flavor. We have to be communicating on the same frequency to be able to discuss this. If there is a flavor associated with what you are describing you have to try and tune in and figure out what it is in order to communicate it better to us. Lots of us here are beer judges or have judged beer so we tend to use the same language when describing things.

 

Now what you are describing could be a combination of a flavor and a mouthfeel sensation, but you need to try and better describe that in order for us to understand.

 

Also, did you take a PH reading for any of the brew tan beers at their final stage? Don't assume that the PH is where you think it is if you've changed a variable. It's an easy objective test that takes away a variable.

[Big Nake]

I'm sure I'm not describing this well and it's tricky to put flavors into words. I'm sure I'm also going to communicate poorly to someone who is a beer judge. Anything that I may pick up that is related to oxidation (if I'm picking anything up from oxidation) is hard to describe. In terms of the pH readings, all of the brewtan beers have acted normally in terms of my expectations with pH. Mash and sparge seem to be right on track and kettle pH after all wort is collected appears to be right where it typically is... 5.3 to 5.4. If the addition of the brewtan during the boil is having an impact on pH, I don't know because I don't check the pH after I start my boil. If it had ANY impact, my guess is that it would lower it because it contains an acid of some sort (IIRC) and I believe it was discussed earlier that the brewtan would have little-to-no pH impact at these small levels.

Smoothness is a feeling not a flavor.

I get this. The finish of the beers in question is not smooth, it's harsh. It's chalky. You may not experience it while the beer is in your mouth but when you swallow it, you notice it. The finish on the two brewtan beers I sampled finish much smoother for some reason. I wish I could explain it better but that's why I mentioned that it will be interesting to see how others react to their first brewtan beer.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I get this. The finish of the beers in question is not smooth, it's harsh. It's chalky. You may not experience it while the beer is in your mouth but when you swallow it, you notice it. The finish on the two brewtan beers I sampled finish much smoother for some reason. I wish I could explain it better but that's why I mentioned that it will be interesting to see how others react to their first brewtan beer.

Was there a difference in mineral additions or smb between the chalky beers and the smooth brewtan beers?

[Big Nake]

Was there a difference in mineral additions or smb between the chalky beers and the smooth brewtan beers?

No. One of the latest examples of a really poor beer was this cream ale kind of thing with 2112. Calcium chloride only, no gypsum added to the mash. pH lined up all across the process. No SMB. I only used SMB on one batch that was ruined when my new stainless chiller unleashed some manufacturing oil or other residue into the beer. The cream ale batch was especially bad and I don't know what the issue was. There have been numerous "good" beers as well as beers that are drinkable but have a bit of this "static" where the flavors are just not as clean, clear and smooth as these two brewtan beers I have sampled. I'm blaming the 'static' on oxidation. Flavors are not as deep and smooth. The delicate malt and hop character is not there like they are in the brewtan batches.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Well, my second guess about the hops could be close.

Using descriptors like chalky in the finish help a lot, keep trying to objectify the mouthfeel and flavors, you're doing great!

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, I've had batches come out astringent, rough, harsh when I used old yeast harvests that I knew were a little over the hill. RO water, perfect pH, no other factors than the yeast health itself. What was your yeast condition on the blonde ale?

[Brauer]

I get this. The finish of the beers in question is not smooth, it's harsh. It's chalky. You may not experience it while the beer is in your mouth but when you swallow it, you notice it. The finish on the two brewtan beers I sampled finish much smoother for some reason. I wish I could explain it better but that's why I mentioned that it will be interesting to see how others react to their first brewtan beer.

Your description of a lingering chalkiness sounds like astringency, to me. I had been thinking that Brewtan B, being a tannic acid, might act as a binding site competitor preventing the native tannins/polyphenols from being pulled out by precipitating proteins. Now, I have to wonder if Brewtan B is actually fascilitating the precipitation of polyphenol-protein complexes, acting to reduce tannin levels.

Smooth like you might describe an 18-year old Macallan Scotch, right? Tannins, though famous for their astringency, also have flavor and bitterness. So, reducing polyphenol levels changes both flavor and mouthfeel, making the two difficult to separate. That's one problem I have with the popular refrain that "astringency is a mouthfeel", especially in response to people mistaking astringency for bitterness. Yes, that's true, but the compounds responsible for astringency also can be harshly bitter.

[Steve Urquell]

I'm not noticing anything different in malt aroma, color, etc of the mash but my mash pH was 5.1 which is lower than normal for this batch. Usually 5.2-5.3. Brauer, is it possible that Brewtan could have done this?

[neddles]

I'm not noticing anything different in malt aroma, color, etc of the mash but my mash pH was 5.1 which is lower than normal for this batch. Usually 5.2-5.3. Brauer, is it possible that Brewtan could have done this?

I had the opposite happen the other day on my first brewtan B batch. Targeted 5.30 and got 5.45 15 min. into the mash. Which is a bit more off target than I usually see. One big caveat is that I have not mashed the identical grist before. You probably have.

Edited by neddles, 02 July 2016 - 06:44 AM.

[Steve Urquell]

I have. Exact bag of malt, water additions, same acid malt. Sparge pH was 5.4 without acid added. Usually ~5.6 after adding a little phosphoric acid.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I've had batches come out astringent, rough, harsh when I used old yeast harvests that I knew were a little over the hill. RO water, perfect pH, no other factors than the yeast health itself. What was your yeast condition on the blonde ale?

It was 2112 on its 2nd run (west coast lager was the first run and it was fine).

Smooth like you might describe an 18-year old Macallan Scotch, right?

No idea because I don't drink scotch.

How about this... my non-brewtan beers seem "busier". There is more happening and it's almost like drinking a glass of Perrier when I just want water (which is not to say that my non-brewtan beers were overcarbed... just busy). My brewtan beers seem much simpler and streamlined. Smoother, cleaner, simpler. Malt, hop and yeast flavors are clearer and they seem a little more magnified. Last night I had 2 or 3 glasses of this Amarillo-Citra pale ale (my 1st brewtan beer) and it has now cleared very nicely (it was dry-hopped and I did gel it cold in the keg) and it's just fantastic all the way around. I don't know how else to describe it... it's like putting a noise filter on something and getting rid of clutter in the flavor of the beer. My beers were so busy-tasting before that I felt that I needed to use more distilled water or less water treatment so I could 'clean them up' but now the brewtan beers are so streamlined that last night while drinking this pale ale I though, "Now I feel like I could actually bump up the sulfate in this beer and get a little more snap to it". I would have never said that about a beer in the past because I was already getting quite a bit of edgy flavor and I think oxidation was responsible for ALL of these things I'm describing. Let's go you guys... 3 day weekend... everyone brew up a brewtan batch and let's compare notes!

[positiveContact]

it will be interesting if I also want to use more sulfate on my hoppy beers.  I already use quite a bit sometimes.

[Brauer]

I'm not noticing anything different in malt aroma, color, etc of the mash but my mash pH was 5.1 which is lower than normal for this batch. Usually 5.2-5.3. Brauer, is it possible that Brewtan could have done this?

It is a weak acid, but they may have neutralized the pH. It does look like it might react with phosphate, which could lower the pH... I'll look to see what else I can find.

Interestingly, it looks like it might be able to pull some iron out of solution, which might help a lot of brewers.

I'll be intererested to hear any observations that sound like changes in oxidation level.

[Steve Urquell]

I had the KL pinkish tinged wort foam. Boil seemed a little more aromatic. I noticed the bittering hop aroma throughout the boil which I usually don't. Mash didn't seem any more aromatic than normal. All subjective though. Could just be looking for something and noticing stuff that are usually there but I am not looking for them.

[Brauer]

I would have never said that about a beer in the past because I was already getting quite a bit of edgy flavor and I think oxidation was responsible for ALL of these things I'm describing.

It's possible, but I think it is possible you are only focussing on the term "oxidation" because that's how this discussion started. Your description isn't what I would normally associate with oxidation, though it could be something like how Crystal Malts become more cloying and unpleasant when oxidized. On the other hand, it sounds like what I experience when my beer drops clear and the malt and hop flavors become brighter and more focussed.

[Big Nake]

I'm probably not going to be able to describe it much better than I have until someone else tries a brewtan beer and has a more accurate description that I can agree with. My tastebuds tell me that brewtan is doing something positive for my beers. I am racking the S-189 pilsner to a keg right now and then it will be chilled, gelled and carbed and that will be brewtan beer #4 for me and one that I'm looking forward to tasting.
 

I had the KL pinkish tinged wort foam. Boil seemed a little more aromatic. I noticed the bittering hop aroma throughout the boil which I usually don't. Mash didn't seem any more aromatic than normal. All subjective though. Could just be looking for something and noticing stuff that are usually there but I am not looking for them.

I get the tannish-pinkish foam on every beer I make with brewtan. The color of the wort does not seem to change at the point it's going into the fermenter. My pH has lined up nicely with the brewtan beers and I have actually been bumping my lactic acid additions slightly because I have had my mash pH come to 5.4 or 5.5 and I end up adjusting EVERY TIME. So now I'm adding a little more from the start and getting a mash pH between 5.2 and 5.3... as a result it's hard to tell if the brewtan is futzing with the pH at all. Brauer, as a chemist (are you a chemist?), you may see things that the brewtan is supposed to do on a technical level where my most advanced instruments are my tastebuds. I'm looking forward to your take both technically and objectively if you make and taste a brewtan beer.

Something else: I know most of us are dismissing info from the GBF for better or worse but one of the things they mentioned was that when oxidation is kept to a minimum and delicate malt flavors are preserved, the result might be a perceived sweetness to the beer that you may not have noticed before. I don't want to equate a brewtan beer to one that would be brewed in accordance with "the paper", but this latest helles of mine (brewtan used) did have a little of that lingering malt sweetness on the first sip and it surprised me. The beer is not cloyingly sweet and it does not finish sweet but there is a malt character that did not exist before.

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, I'm gonna add something about that S-189. It left a ton of aromatic malt character in my light lager with no Brewtan use. I was thinking that if I had used Brewtan on it, I would have thought it was b/c of it. I've never had Rahr pils smell that delicious before.