517 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

shaggaroo, on 23 Jun 2016 - 8:00 PM, said:

Actually only one O atom different: SO3 v SO4

And where does one buy this infamous brewtan-b?

Contact Schwanz. He's our resident dealer supplier. I ordered mine from a place (iBrew) in Australia which took about 10-12 days to get to me. But Rich picked some up from a buddy who has a Wyeast account. Hopefully a US distributor turns up to make it easier. Also, I should say that I'm not sure if Rich still has any because he has shipped some out to fellow Bluebies.

[shaggaroo]

Thanks for the info. If I get some, cool, if not I guess I'll just give up brewing... nah, not really

[denny]

A guy here uses it and likes it....https://hbd.org/disc...html?1466724647

[Big Nake]

denny, on 23 Jun 2016 - 9:26 PM, said:

A guy here uses it and likes it....https://hbd.org/disc...html?1466724647

Mmm, good stuff that others are using it. At the very least it will mean more information bouncing around. What was the BrewBrite the guy was talking about? Sounds promising.

EDIT: ZOMG, what the hell. I did a little Google-fu on the Brewbrite and the only places I see it available are in Australia. How on Earth is that possible? Why does Australia have all the good brewing ingredients?!?!?

[Mya]

ER Pemberton, on 23 Jun 2016 - 9:32 PM, said:

Mmm, good stuff that others are using it. At the very least it will mean more information bouncing around. What was the BrewBrite the guy was talking about? Sounds promising.

EDIT: ZOMG, what the hell. I did a little Google-fu on the Brewbrite and the only places I see it available are in Australia. How on Earth is that possible? Why does Australia have all the good brewing ingredients?!?!?

they dont cool thier wort, they need all the help they can get.

[mabrungard]

I don't think that Brewtan-B states that it removes oxygen from wort. My understanding is that it removes iron and copper which can create a Fenton reaction that might stale the wort. 

[Big Nake]

mabrungard, on 24 Jun 2016 - 1:33 PM, said:

I don't think that Brewtan-B states that it removes oxygen from wort. My understanding is that it removes iron and copper which can create a Fenton reaction that might stale the wort.

Martin: We were going on the idea that it prevents oxidative reactions from occurring in the wort based on some literature from the manufacturer and someone Denny knows who has used it for a long time. SMB is supposed to "scavenge" O2 but Brewtan just makes it so that O2 that is present doesn't have any adverse impact during mashing, sparging, recircing, stirring, boiling, racking, etc.

[denny]

mabrungard, on 24 Jun 2016 - 1:33 PM, said:

I don't think that Brewtan-B states that it removes oxygen from wort. My understanding is that it removes iron and copper which can create a Fenton reaction that might stale the wort. 

 

I agree, Martin.  But if I understood Joe correctly, it prevents O2 form having an effect, or at least drastically reduces the effect.  In that HBD thread I linked to earlier, this was quoted from Wyeast..."It is highly effective at coagulating and flocculating proline and –thiol –containing proteins, but does not interact with foam-positive proteins. This in turn inhibits downstream lipid and protein oxidation, improving flavor stability and shelf life"

[Big Nake]

I am sampling brewtan beer number 2... my Munich Helles. This one was made with Barke Pils which is new to me. The beer is a little ruddy because I gelled the beer in the keg. But the flavor is very similar to what I described earlier (post 52, page 3 of this thread) about the first brewtan beer I tasted. Any and all harshness/coarseness is gone. The beer is super smooth and very fine-tasting. The drinkability is better. I taste the malts and hops more clearly and this beer (on first sip) actually tasted slightly sweet in the finish which I would not have noticed on the first beer (Amarillo-Citra pale ale) because there were far more hops in that beer. I don't know if that means I should mash slightly lower or what. Now that I've had about a half glass of this beer, it doesn't taste sweet anymore, it just tastes like crystal clear (tasting, not visually), super smooth beer. Again, I don't want to have a parade but something very different is happening with these brewtan beers... there is no question. I know Denny likes proof but I do not need a blind triangle test to tell that something is vastly different in my beers. I have now made 5 brewtan beers (pale ale, helles, another pale ale, pilsner, dark lager) and I'm looking forward to trying them all now. I'll say again that maybe I see a more pronounced difference because I possibly over-oxidized my beers in the past with all the splashing and stirring. The results so far are very exciting. Cheers peeps.

[Big Nake]

Here's another thought: I felt like I was getting some coarseness in some pale beers lately and decided that I would try to offset that with distilled water. Is it possible that oxidation could bring out some stale, coarse character that made the beer less smooth? I say this because this helles was made with 25% distilled water and it's unbelievably smooth. I feel like the distilled water plus the oxidation protection of the brewtan is almost overkill... as if I could just bypass the distilled water. Does that make sense?

[shaggaroo]

I guess consider the mineral content of the water? Cutting with distilled water would certainly alter your chemistry.

[neddles]

I don't know how to answer your questions but your tasting notes are very encouraging. I trust your palate on your beers.

 

 

Soooo, if Brewtan B does make a difference then are we confirming that HSA did matter all this time? Or… what?

[Big Nake]

neddles, on 28 Jun 2016 - 11:23 PM, said:

I don't know how to answer your questions but your tasting notes are very encouraging. I trust your palate on your beers.
 
 
Soooo, if Brewtan B does make a difference then are we confirming that HSA did matter all this time? Or… what?

I'm not sure I understand what is "hot side", etc. What I think it means is that any introduction of O2 during the process has the ability to alter the taste of your beer and steal subtle flavors that you would like to preserve. Pouring hot strike water into your MT, stirring, recircing, running off, chilling, racking to primary, etc... all of that splashing and aerating can rob your beer of flavor. This is what it sounds like to me. I always learned that after fermentation is when you treat the beer carefully (which I have always done) but now it seems that all of the spots before the boil have an impact too. I'm interested in hearing what other brewers discover (if anything) when they try their first brewtan beers.

[neddles]

"Hot side", as I understand it, is simply any part of the brewing process pre-chill.

[Big Nake]

neddles, on 29 Jun 2016 - 12:36 AM, said:

"Hot side", as I understand it, is simply any part of the brewing process pre-chill.

If that's the case, then HSA is real just based on the two brewtan beers I have made and tasted. This may be the 3rd or 4th time I have mentioned it but it's always possible that many other brewers are already very cautious when it comes to HSA and so they may try brewtan and assume that there is nothing to it. But I taste something very different in these two beers and it may have an impact on other things as well. For example, the resulting beer is deep and malty which may mean bumping up hop amounts on future batches to account for that. It may also mean an adjustment to water composition where more sulfate can be used to offset the maltiness. My guess is that an abundance of sulfate + oxidation comes across harsh and coarse and with the oxidation out of the way, additional sulfate could [or maybe should] be used. I'm feeling around in the dark since I have never tasted beers of mine like this in the past.

[Brauer]

neddles, on 28 Jun 2016 - 11:23 PM, said:

Soooo, if Brewtan B does make a difference then are we confirming that HSA did matter all this time? Or… what?

Since Brewtan B was originally intended as a clarifying agent, we won't really know that the benefit isn't simply the removal of a flavor negative component, independent of any possible effects on HSA. Alternately or coincident with that, the selective precipitation of thiol- and proline-rich proteins has the potential to reduce oxidation reactions downstream, independent of HSA. This might be particularly prominent in a beer that would otherwise require clarifying agents late in the process, after the secondary damage may have occurred.

[neddles]

Brauer, on 29 Jun 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Since Brewtan B was originally intended as a clarifying agent, we won't really know that the benefit isn't simply the removal of a flavor negative component, independent of any possible effects on HSA. Alternately or coincident with that, the selective precipitation of thiol- and proline-rich proteins has the potential to reduce oxidation reactions downstream, independent of HSA. This might be particularly prominent in a beer that would otherwise require clarifying agents late in the process, after the secondary damage may have occurred.

That makes sense. With potentially multiple effects on the wort/beer it becomes pretty difficult to untangle them independently.

[Big Nake]

Both of the beers I have tasted with Brewtan were (so far), a bit cloudy. The pale ale was dry hopped in the keg, then chilled, a gel solution was added, then carbed. Both beers were sent from primary directly to the keg so they did not have the chance to clarify in a secondary. But both beers have only had about 2 glasses of beer tapped from them so I may just be pulling a lot of dropped-out yeast from them. It would be a nice added benefit if they both ran clear for the majority of the keg. Remember that none of my observations have any scientific angle to them... it's strictly a comparison to the beers I have been brewing for the past 17 years. I look forward to everyone else's opinion when they taste their first few brewtan-b beers.

I was also thinking about the various brewing setups that people have. With my old-school setup of pouring water, etc., would I be more likely to have higher levels of oxidation compared to someone who had a swankier setup where water was quietly transferred, etc.? I mention this because someone with very low levels of oxidation may try brewtan and conclude that it does nothing or very little for the flavor of the beer.

[denny]

Brauer, on 29 Jun 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Since Brewtan B was originally intended as a clarifying agent, we won't really know that the benefit isn't simply the removal of a flavor negative component, independent of any possible effects on HSA. Alternately or coincident with that, the selective precipitation of thiol- and proline-rich proteins has the potential to reduce oxidation reactions downstream, independent of HSA. This might be particularly prominent in a beer that would otherwise require clarifying agents late in the process, after the secondary damage may have occurred.

WAS it originally intended only as a clarifier? I wasn't aware of that.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Ken, it could very well be confirmation bias. I know you make great beer and seem to have a palate for delicate beers, but until you actually do a triangle test you can't say with any certainty that it's making a difference. I'm not disparaging you or your palate, but these things have to be objectively measured.

 

That being said, if you think it makes your beer better, by all means use it. There's no brewing gestapo that's going to raid your home and break your fermentors (though I suspect a certain group wouldn't hesitate to do that if they thought they could get away with it -  ).