517 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

It is a weak acid...

It appears to be a very weak acid.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I'm gonna add something about that S-189. It left a ton of aromatic malt character in my light lager with no Brewtan use. I was thinking that if I had used Brewtan on it, I would have thought it was b/c of it. I've never had Rahr pils smell that delicious before.

Interesting. I'm thinking that some amount of that malt pop might come from this Barke Pils I have been using too. On the topic of the S-189, I just kegged the pils I made with it and the aroma was nice and clean and the beer color looked really nice and bright. This S-189 looks like it flocs well too... super clear coming out of the primary. I'm going to make an "American Lager" with it next. I was thinking red lager and I may still do that but with the warmer weather I would appreciate more gold lagers so I'm doing that first.

Another aside on the topic of your "rahr pils"... I bought a sack of Rahr 2-row (standard, not pale ale) and it also seems to be very fresh and aromatic. On the last 2 or 3 batches I've made, I have conditioned the malt as well and when that spritz of water hits that Rahr 2-row, I want to eat it with a spoon. I forgot to mention the conditioning but I like the sound of what it's supposed to do (smoother beer, possibly less haze, etc) so I've been doing that right before I mill.

[Big Nake]

It appears to be a very weak acid.

So in terms of futzing with pH, we could pretty much ignore it, right?

[Brauer]

My tastebuds tell me that brewtan is doing something positive for my beers.

I don't doubt that you taste a difference, though I wish you had only changed the beer by adding Brewtan B and not changed a bunch things at once, and had tasted it next to a control beer without Brewtan B. I work in an area of drug development for a pharmaceutical company, so I am very aware of how powerful the placebo effect can be. Placebos are often shown to be as effective as anti-depressants that actually do something.

I get the tannish-pinkish foam on every beer I make with brewtan.

This is partly what makes me think that the benefit you are getting could be the result of an adverse flavor component you are removing, and have nothing to do with reduced oxidation.

Brauer, as a chemist (are you a chemist?), you may see things that the brewtan is supposed to do on a technical level where my most advanced instruments are my tastebuds. I'm looking forward to your take both technically and objectively if you make and taste a brewtan beer.

Hah! I'm a biochemist, which means (at least in my case) that I know quite a bit about biological things (enzymes, yeast and the like are reasonably close to my comfort zone) and can struggle through a little chemistry, if I really have to (in other words, I'm a pretty lousy chemist). Luckily, brewing is more about biochemistry than chemistry.

Usually, I'm actually not particularly interested in chemical analysis of beer because I know that it is possible to detect changes that have no noticable effect on flavor. I think the Brülosophy guys are doing it right, because they are using the scientific method to determine what factors affect beer flavor. However, once it is shown that Brewtan B affects flavor, it would be nice to see analytical evidence that explains how it does it. In the meanwhile, I just want to make sure we are objective in assessing the effect and not making assumptions about oxidation.

Something else: I know most of us are dismissing info from the GBF for better or worse

Currently, I am just not considering them at all. We are now talking about a completely different method than they proposed and I'm not sure if we are talking about a related effect.

I was initially averse to adding tannic acid, but it does look like it has a lot of potentially beneficial effects, even if it ends up having little effect on oxidation.

However, it does remove a number of the classic targets of oxidation, as well as catalysts of oxidation and potential oxygen donors. Still, those effects would normally be considered as sources of faults that would show with aging (perhaps on the scale of a months, unless egregious).

One possible sign of oxidation to watch for is hop cattiness, which is increased with oxidation. Maybe Simcoe will become palatable with Brewtan B. :|

[Brauer]

So in terms of futzing with pH, we could pretty much ignore it, right?

I suspect so. Worse case, it might lower pH very slightly by reducing phosphate buffering power and as a weak acid (Denny said somewhere that it was pH 4), but probably ignorable. Except of course for Needles, it will raise his mash pH.

[Steve Urquell]

I can't account for my reduced pH. I went back and mixed new buffer solution and checked my pH meter--no difference. Checked my scale to make sure I didn't add too much acid malt--dead on. The only time I've gotten pH 5.1 was on darker beers. Strange.

[Big Nake]

Brauer: Thanks for all of that. I like the idea of someone putting their finger on exactly what is happening as opposed to someone (ME!) just saying "My beer tastes better!". There was also this guy that Denny mentioned who has been using brewtan for years already... I'd like to hear from him about his experiences. I thought that Denny also mentioned that he had tastes a couple of his brewtan beers already and wanted to be cautious about what he said (wanting to be objective) but at the same time saying that his beers tasted cleaner and clearer. You're also right that I changed a number of things at once. I used some new malts, a new yeast, I used brewtan and I started conditioning my malt. I also bumped UP my mash volume which bumped DOWN my sparge volume. I consider all of these things to be beneficial and my only real goal is the best possible beer I can make, period. Yes I would like to learn and understand why things are improving but something different is happening and all of it seems good at this point.

I can't account for my reduced pH. I went back and mixed new buffer solution and checked my pH meter--no difference. Checked my scale to make sure I didn't add too much acid malt--dead on. The only time I've gotten pH 5.1 was on darker beers. Strange.

Strange. I can't see it making that much difference but what are we talking about... a difference of .1 or .2?

[Steve Urquell]

The one I brewed today will be close to the original--except for age. I ran out of spalt select hops though--need 1.5 ozs for the dry hop and I'm not buying from farmhouse. I'll probably hop it with some Saaz leaf I just got from hopsdirect..

[shaggaroo]

I don't think that Brewtan-B states that it removes oxygen from wort. My understanding is that it removes iron and copper which can create a Fenton reaction that might stale the wort.

As a chemist, I'm thinking along these lines too. As a weak acid, Brewtan-B won't contribute much if anything to pH, but it probably acts as a chelating agent to scavenge Fe3+ and Cu2+, both of which can act as oxidizing agents.

[Big Nake]

As a chemist, I'm thinking along these lines too. As a weak acid, Brewtan-B won't contribute much if anything to pH, but it probably acts as a chelating agent to scavenge Fe3+ and Cu2+, both of which can act as oxidizing agents.

Very interesting. I have no idea how much iron or copper I have in my water but my Ward Labs sheet might know... Yep: I have < 0.3ppm of iron and <1.0ppm of copper. If I had high levels of those would it make sense that I would see more noticeable results with brewtan than someone with lower numbers?

[neddles]

I suspect so. Worse case, it might lower pH very slightly by reducing phosphate buffering power and as a weak acid (Denny said somewhere that it was pH 4), but probably ignorable. Except of course for Needles, it will raise his mash pH.

Dammit Brauer!!!!

[Brauer]

As a chemist, I'm thinking along these lines too. As a weak acid, Brewtan-B won't contribute much if anything to pH, but it probably acts as a chelating agent to scavenge Fe3+ and Cu2+, both of which can act as oxidizing agents.

Thanks for quoting Martin's post, I missed that. I have no idea how much effect trace amounts of metals might have. A similar component is the precipitation of proline and thiol-rich proteins which can act as both oxidation targets and potential oxygen donors, downstream.

Dammit Brauer!!!!

Hey, I'm just reporting the data.

[denny]

So in terms of futzing with pH, we could pretty much ignore it, right?

 

Yes.  I believe that was confirmed a while back.

As a chemist, I'm thinking along these lines too. As a weak acid, Brewtan-B won't contribute much if anything to pH, but it probably acts as a chelating agent to scavenge Fe3+ and Cu2+, both of which can act as oxidizing agents.

 

That's pretty much the explanation I heard from Joe.

[Big Nake]

Another adjective that I thought of last night... soft. The brewtan seems to soften the beer quite a bit which is why I was saying that on my pre-brewtan beers I was shying away from sulfates because I seemed to be getting some edgy, coarse character which is also why I would use some distilled water here or there. The brewtan beers are smooth and soft to the point where jacking up the sulfate my be necessary now and I may get a completely different view of how a higher-sulfate beer might be. Smooth, soft, clean... that's what I'm getting.

As a chemist, I'm thinking along these lines too. As a weak acid, Brewtan-B won't contribute much if anything to pH, but it probably acts as a chelating agent to scavenge Fe3+ and Cu2+, both of which can act as oxidizing agents.

Would anyone care to translate this into English? I'm digging the scientific explanation of this product even if I can't understand it. Apparently my iron and copper levels are low (at least they look low to me) so what exactly is the brewtan doing?

[positiveContact]

brewtan bonds with metals.  at least that's what that one post is saying.  had to look up chelating

Edited by Evil_Morty, 03 July 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[shaggaroo]

brewtan bonds with metals. at least that's what that one post is saying. had to look up chelating

Sorry for the chemspeak... I should have used the word "glom" instead of "chelate". So yes Brewtan-B bonds with those forms of iron and copper to prevent them from being able to oxidize other things. So yes it can be an oxidizer without actually having any oxygen present.

Edited by shaggaroo, 03 July 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Big Nake]

Sorry for the chemspeak... I should have used the word "glom" instead of "chelate". So yes Brewtan-B bonds with those forms of iron and copper to prevent them from being able to oxidize other things. So yes it can be an oxidizer without actually having any oxygen present.

So does any of that suggest that brewtan would protect against oxidation caused by stirring, pouring, recircing, running off, racking, etc? Would people with higher levels of copper and iron notice a bigger difference in their beers made with and without brewtan?

Nothing scientific here but we had a bunch of people over yesterday and at some point my BIL found himself standing in front of my taps rubbing his chin. He tends to go for hoppier things so I pointed him to the Amarillo-Citra pale ale which was my first brewtan beer. He took a sip and his eyes lit up. He called it delicious, outstanding and incredible over the course of the night and his glass was emptied pretty quickly. He usually drinks my beer when he's here but he's usually not as complimentary as he was yesterday. I also had my first brewtan helles on tap because my FIL likes that style. 6 people drinking the homebrew yesterday and a decent dent put into the supply... which is always good.

[shaggaroo]

So does any of that suggest that brewtan would protect against oxidation caused by stirring, pouring, recircing, running off, racking, etc? Would people with higher levels of copper and iron notice a bigger difference in their beers made with and without brewtan?

Ken, I would think that all else being equal, as far as process goes, i.e. make exactly the same beer side by side, but one is made with water having higher iron and copper concentrations, there'd be a difference. Huge? No idea. I would also say that the two questions you pose are two separate beasts.

[Steve Urquell]

I pulled a hydro sample of my brewtan hoppy german pils yesterday and found it to have a  "soft" mouthfeel as has been stated. Of course it had tons of suspended yeast in it. Usual sample will be very harsh at this time. I know this means nothing until it has dropped clear but this sample was quite different from any other I've tasted right after fermentation.

 

This stuff is definitely changing something in the beer. The non-brewtan batch still has some harshness to it. I'll be anxious to compare these two batches. I dropped the dry hops in the brewtan batch after sampling and will begin cold crashing it in a few days. Should be kegging in ~10-12 days and will have the exact same batch in brewtan, non- brewtan, kegged and bottle conditioned versions.

[positiveContact]

so is this a good soft or a bad soft?