517 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Chils... do you feel like your process is such that you don't introduce a lot of O2 in the first place? I'm wondering if your process is such that there is nothing (or very little) for brewtan to correct. I know that Denny mentioned that he pours, stirs, splashes, etc. so maybe brewtan will make a bigger difference for some than for others. If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it's very powerful stuff because I'm noticing a lot of new things. It should be noted that I also modified my mash and sparge volumes, got the SS chiller, started conditioning my malt and started using the brewtan all at the same time... could be something there. But I still pour my strike and sparge water, stir well, recirc into a glass measuring cup, run off, stir while I chill and siphon through a strainer on the way to primary.

 

it's too bad you changed all of that stuff at once but if you like the results I say keep doing it.  it's just a shame that we can't get much useful info out of it due to so many variables.

[neddles]

I sure hope it reduces oxidation. I went to add gelatin to the only beer I have made with brewtan so far. It had been cold crashing for a few days. I realized the keg was leaking pressure. After checking I found the problem is that the rubber piece came off the tip of my PRV and it must be in the keg somewhere. The keg was stored sanitized and holding pressure for a few weeks before I put this beer in it. Popped in a new PRV really hoping there was little exposure, guess we'll see.

[Big Nake]

At this point I'm keeping everything process-wise the same. I still may have some recipe mods to make but I'll adjust those as I encounter them. I agree that I changed a number of things at once but I believe that all of those changes are positive (including the brewtan) and my motive all along was "better beer". If someone told me that I could get better beer by standing on my head in the backyard for 20 minutes at 3am... and it actually worked... I would do it. I might be curious about why it worked but I would not lose sleep over it if the result was better beer. Now if the brewtan were to cause something unsavory like hair loss (I'm already getting there), gastro-intestinal distress or some other unfortunate condition, that would be an issue. But this is not something that was made in some guy's basement so I'm not worried about it.

One other thing I'm noticing about the brewtan is that my beers seem slightly more bitter or the bittering hops are more pronounced than my non-brewtan beers. I have a pilsner on tap now where I added about 25 IBU of Magnum for bittering and it's really bitter. May be my imagination but a pale ale I have on tap now is showing the same signs so I wonder if I should lower the bittering addition and load up on the late hops.

[positiveContact]

I thought the brewtan beers seemed sweeter but they actually seem more bitter?

[denny]

One other thing I'm noticing about the brewtan is that my beers seem slightly more bitter or the bittering hops are more pronounced than my non-brewtan beers. I have a pilsner on tap now where I added about 25 IBU of Magnum for bittering and it's really bitter. May be my imagination but a pale ale I have on tap now is showing the same signs so I wonder if I should lower the bittering addition and load up on the late hops.

 

Is it a batch of Magnum that you've used before on other beers?

[Big Nake]

A brewtan batch with crystal may seem sweeter. A brewtan batch without crystal has a softness that is very unusual which may come across as sweeter but it's really hard to describe. This one pilsner with the Magnum would be pilsner malt with a very small amount of Vienna (probably 8 ounces in 5 gallons) and then carafoam. The Magnum is assertive.
 

Is it a batch of Magnum that you've used before on other beers?

Offhand I'm not sure but I think it was about .4 ounces of Hop Union German Magnum that was 13% and I think I opened a new 1-oz bag. What are you thinking... mislabeled AA% or something?

[denny]

A brewtan batch with crystal may seem sweeter. A brewtan batch without crystal has a softness that is very unusual which may come across as sweeter but it's really hard to describe. This one pilsner with the Magnum would be pilsner malt with a very small amount of Vienna (probably 8 ounces in 5 gallons) and then carafoam. The Magnum is assertive.
 
Offhand I'm not sure but I think it was about .4 ounces of Hop Union German Magnum that was 13% and I think I opened a new 1-oz bag. What are you thinking... mislabeled AA% or something?

 

Yeah, mislabeled or maybe something had changed since they were packed.  The only way to know is to use them in both Brewtan and non Brewtan batches

[Steve Urquell]

Chils... do you feel like your process is such that you don't introduce a lot of O2 in the first place? I'm wondering if your process is such that there is nothing (or very little) for brewtan to correct. I know that Denny mentioned that he pours, stirs, splashes, etc. so maybe brewtan will make a bigger difference for some than for others. If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it's very powerful stuff because I'm noticing a lot of new things. It should be noted that I also modified my mash and sparge volumes, got the SS chiller, started conditioning my malt and started using the brewtan all at the same time... could be something there. But I still pour my strike and sparge water, stir well, recirc into a glass measuring cup, run off, stir while I chill and siphon through a strainer on the way to primary.

Ken, I pour my strike water out of the kettles into the tun. Wort is run off thru a hose w/o splashing, 1/2 of my hot wort is poured into the BK from a smaller kettle, cool wort is poured into the fermenter from the kettle and sits 30hrs waiting on my drauflassen starter then racked splashing into the fermenter.

 

That's been my issue with them all along.  They refuse to admit confirmation bias might be at work, and they also refuse to do blind triangles.

 

I've been on the road doing book signings, seminars and podcast interviews the last couple weeks, but I plan to get back to brewing and testing next week.

I did the two samples again tonight. The first pair of tastings I was certain that one tasted a slight bit harsher than the other. I was right on that one. Sat and sipped on the two after that and couldn't tell them apart.

 

I've read some of the things they have claimed on threads on other forums and I believe they are too invested in their ideas to see clearly. I've seen the refusal by one of them to even brew Kool-Aid a non-LODO beer saying it would have to be dumped due to being inferior and that all his non-LODO beers had been dumped and that he wouldn't even taste a non-LODO beer again. Crazy stuff.

Edited by chils, 29 July 2016 - 05:02 PM.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I pour my strike water out of the kettles into the tun. Wort is run off thru a hose w/o splashing, 1/2 of my hot wort is poured into the BK from a smaller kettle, cool wort is poured into the fermenter from the kettle and sits 30hrs waiting on my drauflassen starter then racked splashing into the fermenter.

What about this part of brewtan where it's supposed to be a good "metal chelating agent"? I'm in deep water here because I'm not sure I understand what's involved but could there be a water/metal issue that brewtan would address based on what is in the source water?

Honestly, I don't know what to say... I drink beer on a regular basis and when the beer is good, it's good and when it's not, I notice it and the next time I drink from that keg again I notice it again. On all of the brewtan beers that I have made, I am tasting softer, smoother beer that finishes cleaner. How can a little brown powder have such an impact on beer?! It's crazy.

[Steve Urquell]

I forgot to add something that occurred to me earlier. The Brewtan batch is only 27 days from pitching yeast. Only carbed for 5 days. It is as good as the other batch brewed 3 months ago. I'd typically reserve judgement of it for another 10 days or so. I'll take another look at these 2 in a couple weeks.

[Big Nake]

I forgot to add something that occurred to me earlier. The Brewtan batch is only 27 days from pitching yeast. Only carbed for 5 days. It is as good as the other batch brewed 3 months ago. I'd typically reserve judgement of it for another 10 days or so. I'll take another look at these 2 in a couple weeks.

That's a good point because my current situation has me bringing beer to the taps earlier than I ordinarily would. That's fine for ales but lagers should sit cold for some amount of time. All of that said, I'm still getting very smooth and soft character from these brewtan batches right after being carbed at 25psi for 48 hours. It may take some time for all of this brewtan nonsense to shake out. More brewers will use it, more feedback will come back and more will be understood. I feel like I would be very skeptical if I thought there was no difference with brewtan. But my tastebuds tell me that there is a positive impact from it.

[cavman]

 I've read some of the things they have claimed on threads on other forums and I believe they are too invested in their ideas to see clearly. I've seen the refusal by one of them to even brew Kool-Aid a non-LODO beer saying it would have to be dumped due to being inferior and that all his non-LODO beers had been dumped and that he wouldn't even taste a non-LODO beer again. Crazy stuff.

Seriously? That is even more laughable than their other claims. Well I guess he won't be drinking any real German beer then, idiots.

[Steve Urquell]

Seriously? That is even more laughable than their other claims. Well I guess he won't be drinking any real German beer then, idiots.

Being a fairly recent convert to the LODO method I see both sides of this issue pretty well. The impasse comes because none of the authors of the paper are willing to make a batch of oxidized beer, and have it tested, simply to prove that there is something to the LODO method. And why should they? As was mentioned above, there is absolutely nothing in it for them to prove it to the non-believers. Besides maybe the joy of dumping the rest of the test batch down the drain.

Shortly after finding the GBF forum, and starting down the LODO path.. the members warned me that I should drink up whatever beer was in the pipeline before my first LODO batch was done. The red pill analogy is spot on. Not only does it ruin the palate for your own experiments in oxidized malt bitterness, suddenly there is a LOT of craft beer you can no longer force yourself to swallow. Once you’ve done it there is no way back to drinking the past.

 

On blind triangle testing:

I agree on the triple blind, stand on your head close one eye while spinning water torture tests.. they are truly pointless in this case. It's so black and white, I refuse to waste my time even entertaining it.

 

Everyone we brought in to try the "system" said they same thing about making great beer already. The next day they were dumping all the beer they had to make room. These were not shoddy brewers, these were the best of the best.

 

I don't have to prove anything to anyone except myself. Try it or don't, it matters not to me. If its my biased conjecture/data that is causing this amazing experience..... lucky me!

 

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Edited by chils, 30 July 2016 - 01:23 AM.

[Big Nake]

I think the behavior of the GBF guys has been made abundantly clear and the way they conduct themselves is not nearly as important to me as making good beer. I mentioned my brewtan beers in the GBF Facebook group and got a lot of flip and nasty comments because I didn't follow the process outlined by them but instead used brewtan. So they do not consider brewtan to be a substitute for their process. With this thread being titled "the official brewtan b thread", their comments aren't really relevant here. All that said, I don't bother posting over there anymore. They're too close-minded on some topics and as far as other topics go, I have plenty of other outlets for that.

[denny]

I've read some of the things they have claimed on threads on other forums and I believe they are too invested in their ideas to see clearly. I've seen the refusal by one of them to even brew Kool-Aid a non-LODO beer saying it would have to be dumped due to being inferior and that all his non-LODO beers had been dumped and that he wouldn't even taste a non-LODO beer again. Crazy stuff.

 

Yet they seem amazed I and others can't take them seriously....

I think the behavior of the GBF guys has been made abundantly clear and the way they conduct themselves is not nearly as important to me as making good beer. I mentioned my brewtan beers in the GBF Facebook group and got a lot of flip and nasty comments because I didn't follow the process outlined by them but instead used brewtan. So they do not consider brewtan to be a substitute for their process. With this thread being titled "the official brewtan b thread", their comments aren't really relevant here. All that said, I don't bother posting over there anymore. They're too close-minded on some topics and as far as other topics go, I have plenty of other outlets for that.

 

They don't believe it, yet they refuse to test it.  Pretty much exactly like their claims, only in reverse...they do believe that and still refuse to test it.

[Big Nake]

I don't necessarily blame them for not testing it because they seem to have the position of "try it for yourself" without attempting to convince anyone. I'm not defending them, I'm just looking at it indifferently. I also realize that some people have the time to conduct proper tests and others do not. One day I would like to have the time and desire to conduct some of these experiments myself but that's not the case right now. I have had some friction with a number of the GBF guys and I quickly realized that I don't need to participate in that kind of interaction. If I can lift some sort of beneficial information from someone that I have an issue with, I'm fine with that. I even thanked the GBF guys for bringing the low-O2 idea up in the first place because it may have shined a light on something in my process that was lacking. Even if I didn't follow their process, I still thanked them for potentially improving my beer (with brewtan and some of the other steps I took). They did not respond to that post of mine.

[Steve Urquell]

I posted that to show how easy it is to believe what you think you are experiencing and tasting. I would have sworn that my beer was completely changed had I not tasted it side-by-side with my other batch.

 

One thing I noticed in going back and forth between 2 glasses is that after a couple of sips it became harder to discern differences in the two.  I'll do another where I only taste the difference once and see if I hit it multi times in a row with an hour between tastings.

[cavman]

Being a fairly recent convert to the LODO method I see both sides of this issue pretty well. The impasse comes because none of the authors of the paper are willing to make a batch of oxidized beer, and have it tested, simply to prove that there is something to the LODO method. And why should they? As was mentioned above, there is absolutely nothing in it for them to prove it to the non-believers. Besides maybe the joy of dumping the rest of the test batch down the drain.
Shortly after finding the GBF forum, and starting down the LODO path.. the members warned me that I should drink up whatever beer was in the pipeline before my first LODO batch was done. The red pill analogy is spot on. Not only does it ruin the palate for your own experiments in oxidized malt bitterness, suddenly there is a LOT of craft beer you can no longer force yourself to swallow. Once you’ve done it there is no way back to drinking the past.
 
On blind triangle testing:
I agree on the triple blind, stand on your head close one eye while spinning water torture tests.. they are truly pointless in this case. It's so black and white, I refuse to waste my time even entertaining it.
 
Everyone we brought in to try the "system" said they same thing about making great beer already. The next day they were dumping all the beer they had to make room. These were not shoddy brewers, these were the best of the best.
 
I don't have to prove anything to anyone except myself. Try it or don't, it matters not to me. If its my biased conjecture/data that is causing this amazing experience..... lucky me!
 
https://www.homebrew...ad.php?t=580532

They think people are going to believe that one taste of their beer and top notch Brewers go home and dump all their beer out? Hahahahah

[Big Nake]

I posted that to show how easy it is to believe what you think you are experiencing and tasting. I would have sworn that my beer was completely changed had I not tasted it side-by-side with my other batch.
 
One thing I noticed in going back and forth between 2 glasses is that after a couple of sips it became harder to discern differences in the two.  I'll do another where I only taste the difference once and see if I hit it multi times in a row with an hour between tastings.

I notice that the first sip of beer of the session is always the best or at least the one where you pick up more of the beer's character. Once you're in the middle of the session, it seems like your tastebuds are less sensitive. I actually still have about a half-keg of a pre-brewtan helles in my spare fridge. I don't happen to have a brewtan helles available at the moment but there is one in primary. Their ages may not make a test suitable but I could try them side by side. Also, I think the older one is with 2352 and the new one is S-189 so that could be an issue too. I'll say this... in June I had some family here and my sister and BIL surprised me by coming over when I didn't know they were coming. I had a helles on tap (no brewtan) and they're Coors Light drinkers so this would be their beer. I tapped three glasses and we talked for a bit and I noticed that the helles was on the harsh side. They drank about half of their beers and it was a short visit because they were meeting a friend so they left. I believe this is when my first brewtan helles was in my on-deck fridge so after they left I switched those two kegs and when they came back the next day (with my niece, nephew and their SOs), that brewtan helles was hit hard by everyone. No one said, "Is this the same beer as yesterday?" but they didn't have to. I know that there is no scientific data there but it's a piece of information that seems valid to me.

I have also had the occasional harsh-tasting batch in the past (pre-brewtan) where I would notice the harshness, drink a few glasses and eventually stop drinking that beer because of the rough finish. If I came back to that beer a few days later, my tastebuds were right on... harshness. I have not experienced that in any of the brewtan beers I've sampled... which is 6. I just finished carbing an American Lager and I plan to take a sample of that beer this afternoon.

[Big Nake]

Oh hey... one thing I forgot about when I mentioned the other process changes I made (ss chiller, conditioning the malt, changing the volume of the mash and sparge...) was that all of my latest beers have skipped the secondary. I seemed to have adjusted to this quite nicely and instead of sending a previous beer to secondary on brewday, I send it to a keg. I'm sure that there was some O2 pickup on that transfer since it was an open transfer and I had no way to purge the secondaries at that time (I do now if I need it). I changed a lot of things at once... all positive I think but it makes it tougher to determine the impact.