222 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Did he give any specific guidance for higher gravity beers? I'm doing a 1.069 and a 1.080 in the near future.

 

pitch more yeast.  lots of O2.

[denny]

Yeah, his point is that it"s yeast health, not cell count, that is the crucial thing.

 

Anyway, here are my results.....https://www.experime...cksthe-followup

[BlKtRe]

Maybe I missed this. Is he making a 4000ml shake starter for a 10g batch or is he recommending doing it in two steps? 

[denny]

Maybe I missed this. Is he making a 4000ml shake starter for a 10g batch or is he recommending doing it in two steps? 

 

Dunno...I can check or you can c'mon over ask him yourself!

[positiveContact]

Maybe I missed this. Is he making a 4000ml shake starter for a 10g batch or is he recommending doing it in two steps? 

 

try 2000ml starter for 10 gallons.  one step.

[SchwanzBrewer]

try 2000ml starter for 10 gallons.  one step.

 

Ah, but you'd need a bigger flask!

[positiveContact]

Ah, but you'd need a bigger flask!

 

I'll make up for it with pure O2

[djinkc]

I'll make up for it with pure O2

From what I have read on this so far I think surface area of the foam would make a difference.

[Brauer]

From what I have read on this so far I think surface area of the foam would make a difference.

Surface area is probably important to a stirred starter, as well. IIRC, there was an experiment that showed higher O₂ levels and improved growth in a half-filled stirred flask vs. one filled to the neck.

[BlKtRe]

try 2000ml starter for 10 gallons.  one step.

 

No, that's min. protocol for a 5g batch. 

[positiveContact]

No, that's min. protocol for a 5g batch. 

 

I'm just telling you what he's saying.

 

A 2L starter is not a small starter by any stretch of the imagination.  I do not know who the "experts" are, but I would love to see their sources.  I am willing to bet that their guidelines are based more on folklore passed down from other brewers who received the information as folklore from other brewers than anything grounded in science.  A 2L liter starter pitched into 10 gallons (38L) is a 1:19 step.  That's well within the realm of a healthy culture that is pitched into well-aerated wort.  It takes log(19) / log(2)  = 4.25 replication (doubling) periods for 400 billion cells to grow into 7.6 trillion cells.   It's just basic biological science. 

By the way, there are two major reasons why we use a starter.  The first reason is to lower the probability that wild microflora will gain control of the batch.  Bacteria multiply 8-fold in the same amount of time that yeast double.   The second reason why we make a starter is to bring the culture out of quiescence before pitching, which reduces lag time, which, in turn, allows the culture to start reproducing faster.  The faster a culture starts reproducing after being pitched, the lower the probability that house microflora will gain a foothold in the fermentation.  Every other reason is subordinate to these two reasons.

 

Edited by Evil_Morty, 05 October 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[denny]

Ah, but you'd need a bigger flask!

 

We don't need no stinking flask!  That's what gal. glass jugs are for!

[SchwanzBrewer]

We don't need no stinking flask!  That's what gal. glass jugs are for!

 

So lets say this way of making a starter is the best way to do it. What procedure/equipment would you use to make a pitchable about of yeast for a 1bbl batch?

[positiveContact]

I would think the procedure would be pretty much the same at that volume.  Probably something like a 5-6L starter.  You could probably use a 6 gal carboy to get it done.

 

eta:  this is just me extrapolating what has been suggested, not saying I know it works.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 06 October 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[matt6150]

This may have been covered buy how do you determine what size of a starter to make with this method. Obviously yeastcalc is out of the picture. Is it just a standard amount per batch size regardless of OG?

[positiveContact]

This may have been covered buy how do you determine what size of a starter to make with this method. Obviously yeastcalc is out of the picture. Is it just a standard amount per batch size regardless of OG?

 

He's recommending something like a 1L starter per 5 gallons of normal gravity stuff.  kick it up to maybe 1.5L for high gravity (that part is my guess) and make sure to really hit the wort hard with O2 to make sure growth happens quickly.  key to his argument is that yeast growth is exponential so the difference between pitching 200B cells and 500B cells is something like an hour difference in growth (estimate on my part here but I'm in the right order of magnitude on those guesses).

[matt6150]

Well I look forward for some results on this.

[positiveContact]

Well I look forward for some results on this.

 

to be honest I don't think it would hurt anything to make a slightly larger starter if it makes you feel better.  it might increase the lag time of the starter slightly.

[denny]

I would think the procedure would be pretty much the same at that volume.  Probably something like a 5-6L starter.  You could probably use a 6 gal carboy to get it done.

 

eta:  this is just me extrapolating what has been suggested, not saying I know it works.

 

I'd be guessing, too, and I'd guess about the same thing.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I'd be guessing, too, and I'd guess about the same thing.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking. And I broke my big mouth bubbler too! I'll pick up another one. I wanna take some samples over to my buddy so we can count yeast and figure out what kind of starter that would produce.

 

So even after hitting it with O2 you still shake the crap out of it, right? OR do you make the wort foam up from adding the O2?