222 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

so now that I'm back in a safe place

 

 

If I were to try this method out for 10 gallons of 1.051 lager can I really just make one 2L starter the night before brew day?

 

Is a 5L flask an acceptable vessel?  My only other option would be something like a brewing bucket (6+ gallons).

 

with this method I'll be lucky if I'm starting with 200B cells.  Also, ferment at room temp (upper 60s, low 70s) and then chill prior to pitching into the 10 gallons?

Edited by Evil_Morty, 03 October 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[neddles]

so now that I'm back in a safe place

 

 

If I were to try this method out for 10 gallons of 1.051 lager can I really just make one 2L starter the night before brew day?

 

Is a 5L flask an acceptable vessel?  My only other option would be something like a brewing bucket (6+ gallons).

 

with this method I'll be lucky if I'm starting with 200B cells.  Also, ferment at room temp (upper 60s, low 70s) and then chill prior to pitching into the 10 gallons?

Would you do this as a 2L drauflaussen fermentation temps?

 

My problem with the method is that there are a lot of beers I would rather not pitch my starter wort into. I frequently make starters from second runnings of no sparge BIAB. That's where drauflaussen becomes attractive. The other downside of the method is timing the high krausen of the starter. That's not "easy" or convenient.

[positiveContact]

Would you do this as a 2L drauflaussen fermentation temps?

 

My problem with the method is that there are a lot of beers I would rather not pitch my starter wort into. I frequently make starters from second runnings of no sparge BIAB. That's where drauflaussen becomes attractive. The other downside of the method is timing the high krausen of the starter. That's not "easy" or convenient.

 

If I only did the one step I'd just use DME.  Without running a stir plate I wouldn't expect the starter beer to be particularly nasty or anything.  Doing something like drauflaussen makes a lot of sense if you are going for a big yeast pitch.  apparently that might not be as important.  my whole yeast knowledge base is in shambles right now.

[neddles]

I'd stick with your standard and proven MO for now. That's what I'll probably do on my next batch.

[denny]

Pitching the starter wort was probably my biggest worry in this batch, but I had to know. So one qt. of starter wort went into this 1.063 beer. I cold crashed it yesterday after a gravity and tase sample. It's looking like one of the best beers I've made in a long time, so the old wort obviously didn't adversely affect it.

[positiveContact]

Pitching the starter wort was probably my biggest worry in this batch, but I had to know. So one qt. of starter wort went into this 1.063 beer. I cold crashed it yesterday after a gravity and tase sample. It's looking like one of the best beers I've made in a long time, so the old wort obviously didn't adversely affect it.

 

so would you be willing to try this on a lager or should I wait?  if I'm going with a more traditional stir plate method I'll have to make a starter tonight.

[positiveContact]

I'd stick with your standard and proven MO for now. That's what I'll probably do on my next batch.

 

that guy over on the AHA forum makes a good case for this new method of just pitching highly active and viable yeast.  apparently the difference in pitching rates in terms of time is a couple of hours.

[HVB]

Still trying to catch up on this. I read the post Denny linked and a few more and think I will give this a go next weekend on the amber ale I have planned and then decide if I want to try it on the dunkle too.

[positiveContact]

Still trying to catch up on this. I read the post Denny linked and a few more and think I will give this a go next weekend on the amber ale I have planned and then decide if I want to try it on the dunkle too.

 

they are telling me to make a 2L starter for 10 gallons of lager

[Brauer]

they are telling me to make a 2L starter for 10 gallons of lager

It's not too far out of line. If you figure that 0.75 million cells per mL is an acceptable, low end pitching rate, it calls for 360 Billion plus for a typical 10 gallon Lager. A 2 L unstirred starter should give you close to 300 billion cells from a fresh pack of yeast. I'm not sure if that's ideal, but I'd expect it to ferment out fine, most of the time, especially if you ramp up the fermentation temperature to help keep the yeast active.

 

I'm sure you'll see a lot of reports of that rate fermenting out to make great beer. After all, plenty of brewers have made very good beer with a vial of yeast or a vial and a pint or 2 starter. Sometimes the stars don't align and they have problems, though. This is similar to Ken's old procedure and the reports are that his beer was quite good, but every once and a while he would post about this or that off flavor.

 

One million per mL gives you a little more insurance for a Lager, which could be helpful if you are going to ferment cold and leave it cold. To get there, you'd need to use a 4 qt unstirred starter for 10 gallons. 1.5 million per mL, the more aggressive Lager pitch recommendation would be about what would be expected from a typical Drauflassen of 2+ gallons for a 10 gallon batch.

[positiveContact]

It's not too far out of line. If you figure that 0.75 million cells per mL is an acceptable, low end pitching rate, it calls for 360 Billion plus for a typical 10 gallon Lager. A 2 L unstirred starter should give you close to 300 billion cells from a fresh pack of yeast. I'm not sure if that's ideal, but I'd expect it to ferment out fine, most of the time, especially if you ramp up the fermentation temperature to help keep the yeast active.

 

I'm sure you'll see a lot of reports of that rate fermenting out to make great beer. After all, plenty of brewers have made very good beer with a vial of yeast or a vial and a pint or 2 starter. Sometimes the stars don't align and they have problems, though. This is similar to Ken's old procedure and the reports are that his beer was quite good, but every once and a while he would post about this or that off flavor.

 

One million per mL gives you a little more insurance for a Lager, which could be helpful if you are going to ferment cold and leave it cold. To get there, you'd need to use a 4 qt unstirred starter for 10 gallons. 1.5 million per mL, the more aggressive Lager pitch recommendation would be about what would be expected from a typical Drauflassen of 2+ gallons for a 10 gallon batch.

 

yeah, I can't decide if I want to the drauflassen method (which would be something like 1.5 gallons of 1.048 or 1.049 wort) or just do a large DME starter.  I'd kind of like to skip the first starter step if my goal is to go for as healthy as possible.

[denny]

so would you be willing to try this on a lager or should I wait?  if I'm going with a more traditional stir plate method I'll have to make a starter tonight.

 

I certainly would and I'll do it as soon as I have a chance.  How else am I gonna know?

[BlKtRe]

I'm just now able to make a few comments. Unbeknownst to me back before I could afford a stir plate I was doing the shaken not stirred technique. Almost every time I would pitch at high krausen but not always. So I guess that's interesting to me on a personal level. Once I switched to the stir plate and a larger (5000ml) flask I stopped crashing and decanting for the next 2000ml step making a total of a 4000ml starter for a normal gravity 10g batch. I do however crash and decant before pitching into my batch using o2 in the fermenter. I may add I use WL yeast nutrient in the starter and stir to move the wort and not create a huge vortex. I use WY 90% of the time. This seems pretty typical for most home brewers. 

 

So looking ahead I don't ever get any foul smelling starters by stirring. I know this because it has become a habit to smell and/or taste everything along the way. I do find the flavor threshold theory very interesting in comparing shaken and stirred starters. But it seems there is no valid proof of this as of yet. The shaken method is pretty much impossible for me to do because I'm never around to shake other than initially. Also planning to brew at high krausen has proved difficult at best for me. And I agree I'm not a big fan of dumping 4000ml of spent wort into my batch. This whole science bit has me very perplexed because I've never had someone tell me that I should of shaken my starter instead of stirred it when they taste my beer. I'm going to hang out with some of my Boulevard guys here soon and I plan to ask what they are doing in regards to this topic. 

[HVB]

I'm just now able to make a few comments. Unbeknownst to me back before I could afford a stir plate I was doing the shaken not stirred technique. Almost every time I would pitch at high krausen but not always. So I guess that's interesting to me on a personal level. Once I switched to the stir plate and a larger (5000ml) flask I stopped crashing and decanting for the next 2000ml step making a total of a 4000ml starter for a normal gravity 10g batch. I do however crash and decant before pitching into my batch using o2 in the fermenter. I may add I use WL yeast nutrient in the starter and stir to move the wort and not create a huge vortex. I use WY 90% of the time. This seems pretty typical for most home brewers. 

 

So looking ahead I don't ever get any foul smelling starters by stirring. I know this because it has become a habit to smell and/or taste everything along the way. I do find the flavor threshold theory very interesting in comparing shaken and stirred starters. But it seems there is no valid proof of this as of yet. The shaken method is pretty much impossible for me to do because I'm never around to shake other than initially. Also planning to brew at high krausen has proved difficult at best for me. And I agree I'm not a big fan of dumping 4000ml of spent wort into my batch. This whole science bit has me very perplexed because I've never had someone tell me that I should of shaken my starter instead of stirred it when they taste my beer. I'm going to hang out with some of my Boulevard guys here soon and I plan to ask what they are doing in regards to this topic. 

 

I think the bolded part will be difficult for me as well.  I would love a simpler process but I have had many brew days cut off because something came up at home, the joys of small kids.  I plan to give this method a go but I am not sure if right now it will be able to replace my standard method.

[neddles]

I think the bolded part will be difficult for me as well.  I would love a simpler process but I have had many brew days cut off because something came up at home, the joys of small kids.  I plan to give this method a go but I am not sure if right now it will be able to replace my standard method.

Exactly where I am on this. If it works out I'll give it a go and I'm sure it will make good beer. It's just not convenient when brewing doesn't always proceed on such a fixed schedule. It's also one reason I am frequently smacking a pack that is 2-5 months old.

[HVB]

Exactly where I am on this. If it works out I'll give it a go and I'm sure it will make good beer. It's just not convenient when brewing doesn't always proceed on such a fixed schedule. It's also one reason I am frequently smacking a pack that is 2-5 months old.

It is one of the reason I use a lot of dry yeast.  I know it will be there waiting for me when I am ready.

[denny]

I think the bolded part will be difficult for me as well.  I would love a simpler process but I have had many brew days cut off because something came up at home, the joys of small kids.  I plan to give this method a go but I am not sure if right now it will be able to replace my standard method.

 

Mark has made clear that it's an approximate kinda thing.

 

FWIW, I intend to keg the beer made with this starter today.  11 days after brewing.

Edited by denny, 05 October 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[HVB]

Mark has made clear that it's an approximate kinda thing.

 

FWIW, I intend to keg the beer made with this starter today.  11 days after brewing.

Like I said, I plan to give it a go and see for myself.

[positiveContact]

Mark has made clear that it's an approximate kinda thing.

 

FWIW, I intend to keg the beer made with this starter today.  11 days after brewing.

 

that's what I'm hoping for.

[neddles]

Did he give any specific guidance for higher gravity beers? I'm doing a 1.069 and a 1.080 in the near future.