222 replies to this topic

[denny]

My experience so far with a 1 qt. non stirred, non crashed and decanted yeast starter.....

 

https://www.experime...d-dognew-tricks

[positiveContact]

Very interesting.  It would also be  interesting to see this experiment with some lager yeast.

 

What's the idea behind not stirring the starter?  Aren't you limiting growth?

[djinkc]

scratches head

 

walks off muttering

[denny]

Very interesting.  It would also be  interesting to see this experiment with some lager yeast.
 
What's the idea behind not stirring the starter?  Aren't you limiting growth?

Cell shear. Damage to the yeast cells. Go to the AHA forum anD read the Shaken Not Tirred thread. Look for posts by S. Cerevisiae. I argued with him, I told him it hadn't worked for me in the past. Then I decided I at least owed him a try. So far, looks lke no reason not to. But we'll see what the beer tastes like.

[positiveContact]

so what is his problem with starsan?

 

also - not much info here, wrong thread?  httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22895.0

Edited by Evil_Morty, 27 September 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[denny]

so what is his problem with starsan?
 
also - not much info here, wrong thread?  httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22895.0

Like a lot of things Mark says, it's based in science more than real life experience. That's why I've had differences with him. My experience often differs from his theory. But that's why I tried his starter procedure...unless I try it, I really don't know.

I'll try to find some specific references for ya. But Ken L. is engaged in a very interesting conversation with him now re: starters.

[denny]

httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24439.0

 

httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23522.0

 

httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24308.0

 

httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22472.msg286465#msg286465

[positiveContact]

kind of reminds me of the drauflassen technique here:  https://www.brews-br...s/#entry1859366

[Steve Urquell]

kind of reminds me of the drauflassen technique here:  https://www.brews-br...s/#entry1859366

I started spinning my drauflassen starters until they show bubbles at the edge of the jar then stop spinning. Usually 4-5hrs. According to what I've read about the yeast life cycle this will keep the starter from oxidizing and it can be pitched at full volume w/o affecting the beers flavor.

On an ale it can be pitched the same day when at high krausen w/ this being the only starter made. I like to let the lagers build overnight after stopping the stirplate as the drauflassen volume is pitched and fermenting at 50F. Racking off the trub is optional of course.

[positiveContact]

I was thinking of maybe making a "starter" with a gallon or two of my next 10 gallon lager batch and then pitching this into the rest of the wort on the following day.  Is there a ratio that would work out for this or is this crazy talk?  I've got some fresh 833 that I'm hoping I could skip making a traditional starter for.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 27 September 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Steve Urquell]

I was thinking of maybe making a "starter" with a gallon or two of my next 10 gallon lager batch and then pitching this into the rest of the wort on the following day.  Is there a ratio that would work out for this or is this crazy talk?  I've got some fresh 833 that I'm hoping I could skip making a traditional starter for.

I use 1 gallon for my 7 gallon batches. Ive broken it down on yeastcalc. Just remember to accout for the pitching volume minus the drauflassen. So 8 gallon batch if using a 2 gallon starter.

[positiveContact]

I use 1 gallon for my 7 gallon batches. Ive broken it down on yeastcalc. Just remember to accout for the pitching volume minus the drauflassen. So 8 gallon batch if using a 2 gallon starter.

 

my main fear is the yeast takes a long time to get to high krausen in the small starter part of the batch.  I REALLY don't like leaving wort not inoculated longer than necessary.

 

but back to the topic of the thread, I wonder what this yeast jedi thinks about dry yeast.  I've been having great luck with US-05 on my last few batches with it.  I also really enjoyed belle saison.  these beers are not particularly different than beers I've made with liquid yeast in terms of quality.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 27 September 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[neddles]

Like a lot of things Mark says, it's based in science more than real life experience. That's why I've had differences with him. My experience often differs from his theory. But that's why I tried his starter procedure...unless I try it, I really don't know.

I'll try to find some specific references for ya. But Ken L. is engaged in a very interesting conversation with him now re: starters.

I was wondering what happened to Ken, he hasnt been here much lately.

[positiveContact]

I was wondering what happened to Ken, he hasnt been here much lately.

 

we aren't good enough for him anymore

[SchwanzBrewer]

Denny, aside from the taste test I wish you could have taken pitch rate counts so you have something objective to compare. 

 

My next thought is that when I make a starter I pitch at high krausen. It's on a stir plate. I only spin the yeast enough to keep it in suspension. You aren't trying to oxygenate it, just give it the highest contact area and time to reproduce. I hardly get any vortex in my starters. I don't do it that way because of science, it's just completely practical. If you want to make a big starter and you don't have a lot of head space, you have to spin it slowly to avoid foam over.

[positiveContact]

Cell shear. Damage to the yeast cells. Go to the AHA forum anD read the Shaken Not Tirred thread. Look for posts by S. Cerevisiae. I argued with him, I told him it hadn't worked for me in the past. Then I decided I at least owed him a try. So far, looks lke no reason not to. But we'll see what the beer tastes like.

 

so why wouldn't shaking also damage the yeast cells?  shaking seems more violent than a stir plate.

[positiveContact]

are there any converts that have posted their results with this method?  everything I see is kind of at a similar place as Denny where the wort has started fermenting but we don't know how the beer is yet.

[SchwanzBrewer]

are there any converts that have posted their results with this method?  everything I see is kind of at a similar place as Denny where the wort has started fermenting but we don't know how the beer is yet.

 

Too soon to tell really. I doubt there's many people that have done the experiment even as a tasting one like Denny.

[positiveContact]

also, the exact process here is a little lacking.  needs more details.

[denny]

Denny, aside from the taste test I wish you could have taken pitch rate counts so you have something objective to compare. 

 

My next thought is that when I make a starter I pitch at high krausen. It's on a stir plate. I only spin the yeast enough to keep it in suspension. You aren't trying to oxygenate it, just give it the highest contact area and time to reproduce. I hardly get any vortex in my starters. I don't do it that way because of science, it's just completely practical. If you want to make a big starter and you don't have a lot of head space, you have to spin it slowly to avoid foam over.

 

Drew and I hope to replicate this and do cell counts.  It will be an experiment on our upcoming series pf podcasts.

so why wouldn't shaking also damage the yeast cells?  shaking seems more violent than a stir plate.

 

I don't think it's as violent as a stir bar.  The whole thing came up discussions of how yeast companies use shaker tables rather than stir plates for propagation.

Too soon to tell really. I doubt there's many people that have done the experiment even as a tasting one like Denny.

 

There are a number of people on the AHA forum trying this, but no reports so far.

also, the exact process here is a little lacking.  needs more details.

 

 

httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24447.msg311561#msg311561