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#101 positiveContact

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 06:54 AM

I listened last night. The guy said he discussed plastics with an expert on toxicity in plastic polymers.He basically said that anything that will leach from a cooler in hot water would also leach from the cooler just as readily in cold water. Therefore, if a cooler is rated as safe for drinking water, it should be fine for mashing - so long as the plastic isn't melting. He also talked about the fact that those coolers should be made from new/virgin plastics.He said he could NOT recommend the use of hardware store buckets for liquid food contact, as those are not food safe, may be made from recycled plastics, and may contain pigments that are not food safe

 

yeah - I use the homer buckets for grain storage (dry) so I figure that is okay.



#102 HVB

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:00 AM

yeah - I use the homer buckets for grain storage (dry) so I figure that is okay.

As do I.  i have never used them to ferment in though.  I do use the ones from Lowes that have markings on the side for starsan. 



#103 Howie

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:01 AM

As do I. i have never used them to ferment in though. I do use the ones from Lowes that have markings on the side for starsan.

I believe he said he deemed both of those uses to be pretty safe

#104 BlKtRe

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:03 AM

I listened last night. The guy said he discussed plastics with an expert on toxicity in plastic polymers.He basically said that anything that will leach from a cooler in hot water would also leach from the cooler just as readily in cold water. Therefore, if a cooler is rated as safe for drinking water, it should be fine for mashing - so long as the plastic isn't melting. He also talked about the fact that those coolers should be made from new/virgin plastics.He said he could NOT recommend the use of hardware store buckets for liquid food contact, as those are not food safe, may be made from recycled plastics, and may contain pigments that are not food safe

 

 

So I find this interesting because I thought HDPE was food grade. I do believe Homer buckets and the like are HDPE. I always check for the HDPE stamp on plastics when buying them for brew related things. 



#105 HVB

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:05 AM

So I find this interesting because I thought HDPE was food grade. I do believe Homer buckets and the like are HDPE. I always check for the HDPE stamp on plastics when buying them for brew related things. 

I was under the same impression to be honest.



#106 positiveContact

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:09 AM

i think the problem is the dyes they add to them.



#107 BlKtRe

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:11 AM

I was under the same impression to be honest.

 

To be honest, I don't think I have NOT ever found the HDPE stamp on plastic containers I look to use for brewing applications. Its like the plastic of choice for everything. 

i think the problem is the dyes they add to them.

 

But HDPE is HDPE?



#108 Howie

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:12 AM

i think the problem is the dyes they add to them.

That and that they may be made from recycled material

#109 BlKtRe

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:12 AM

That and that they may be made from recycled material

 

Then the plastic would not qualify for HDPE food safe plastic then. What ami missing?



#110 Steve Urquell

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:19 AM

Then the plastic would not qualify for HDPE food safe plastic then. What ami missing?

The NSF rating only applies to those which have a food safe mold release agent. Non-NSF rated HDPE 2 can have toxic mold release compounds which can end up in your beer.

#111 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:44 AM

I use the white buckets from Menards. They are cheaper and rated food safe.



#112 BlKtRe

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:52 AM

The NSF rating only applies to those which have a food safe mold release agent. Non-NSF rated HDPE 2 can have toxic mold release compounds which can end up in your beer.

 

Thanks for the clarification. 



#113 denny

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 11:01 AM

Different should have been the word I used. Coolers work great.I would ideally like something made of a material that is declared to be food safe at mash temps. I know many say it is fine, but it's mostly anecdotal. I have never seen any cooler manufacturer say so.Stainless presents it's own issues because it lacks heat retention properties.

 

Just look up info about the food safety of HDPE



#114 BlKtRe

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 11:39 AM

Just look up info about the food safety of HDPE

 

Obviously you are not worried about it. 



#115 Howie

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:26 PM

Just look up info about the food safety of HDPE

Igloo's website says the lining is FDA polypropylene, though don't mention hot foods Guess that will have to suffice

Edited by Howie, 30 December 2014 - 12:26 PM.


#116 denny

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:48 PM

Obviously you are not worried about it. 

 

I've researched it and found nothing to be worried about.



#117 denny

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:50 PM

Igloo's website says the lining is FDA polypropylene, though don't mention hot foodsGuess that will have to suffice

 

I don't use Igloo's coolers, so I'm not too familiar with what they're made of.  The Rubbermaid and Coleman coolers I use are (supposedly) HDPE.  I went through this many years ago with a PhD friend who specializes in plastics.  he put my fears to rest.  everybody else gets to make their own decision.

 

ETA:  I dug up one of the emails I received from him...

 

"I forget whether the Rubbermaid and Igloo coolers are polypropylene or polyethylene but both are very similar plastics that vary mostly in there temperature ranges. Both are relatively low temp plastics and very safe for food contact. The only worry about using hot liquids in either cooler is that the plastic will soften at temps approaching 200°F. 

 
I used to use a Gott cooler for a mash tun and used a false bottom with screws for feet to hold it up above the spigot. On one occasion, I did a decoction and after adding the boiling grist back to the cooler, there was enough wort at high enough temperature that when I turn on my circulating pump, the vacuum pressure on the FB caused the bolts to pull down through the bottom of the inner wall. I never had a problem with regular infusion mashing though. Eventually, the inner wall will buckle a bit from multiple hot water infusion.
 
I enjoyed reading some of the comments on the NB forum. You can post this there if you like. It's amazing the tack that a discussion can take when everyone works off of speculation and not information. PP & PE are only related to PVC because they are both polymers. From there, they are quite different. Many PVC's have plasticizers added to soften them up. It's the plasticizers that are liable to leach out and cause health problems. Unless you work in a PVC factory, the PVC itself is not worth worrying about. It's the Chlorine in PVC that makes it so potentially dangerous but primarily at processing temps, not use temps.
 
Cost has nothing to do with whether a polymer is safe or not. Most polymers are food grade. Many don't have the certifications that are necessary to sell them as food grade. PP & PE see so much food contact use that 99% of them are designed for food contact. Do you think that they'd let you put water in a non-food grade container (I know you don't Denny)? The polymers price is based on the cost to manufacture it.  PP & PE are cheap because their chemistry is so simple. Think of them as a close cousin to candle wax. From there, most plastics are priced by their temp capabilities. I've worked with some that are over $50 a pound. They get lots of use are medical instruments and aircraft interiors.
 
The polyphenylene sulfide (PPS) that is common on March pump heads is the binder that sticks the teflon to your cookware (you didn't think they could get teflon to stick, did you?). The polysulphone of the quick connects is also used to make the interior panels of aircraft because of their low flammability and low smoke emissions. BTW, the vinyl hose we all use around our home breweries is PVC! I'm sure it has plenty of plasticizers in it to make it flexible."

Edited by denny, 30 December 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#118 positiveContact

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:52 PM

I don't use Igloo's coolers, so I'm not too familiar with what they're made of.  The Rubbermaid and Coleman coolers I use are (supposedly) HDPE.  I went through this many years ago with a PhD friend who specializes in plastics.  he put my fears to rest.  everybody else gets to make their own decision.

 

coleman here.  it just works too well for me to bother changing.  i did an overnight mash last night and my garage is not very warm (probably about 40F).  i still maintained 140F after 11-12 hours.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 30 December 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#119 HVB

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:53 PM

coleman here.  it just works too well for me to bother changing.  i did an overnight mash last night and my garage is not very warm (probably about 40F).  i still maintained 140F after 11-12 hours.

My ss pot can retain 152F for any length of time, of course it has some help :)



#120 positiveContact

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:59 PM

My ss pot can retain 152F for any length of time, of course it has some help :)

 

if i was electric my tune might change ;)




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