67 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

I always mash an Alt around 149F. I want them to finish at 1.008-1.010, which I get with WLP011 (about 80% attenuation). OG should be 1.048, though. 1.055 is a Sticke Alt. When I use CaraMunich or CaraAroma in an Alt, I usually use about 2.5 oz.  I start fermentation at 60-62F, but I try to bring it up a couple degrees before fermentation slows to get full attenuation. The big benefit of this yeast is that once it is done, it drops like a rock and leaves a crystal clear beer without extensive lagering. I like the flavor of 1007, but it flocs worse than a Lager yeast, and WLP001 has a similar flavor.

 

It's as bad a weizen yeasts. I've never filtered it before, but I get a smoothness in the flavor with 1007 that I just can't get with WLP001. Might be just because I'm forced to lager it to clear it and that lets the beer mellow. I dunno. IMO there is a slight difference with the yeast. 

[Big Nake]

I know I've posted this before but here is an Altbier I made with 1007 and I didn't do anything different with trying to clear it. It got a gel solution treatment and probably sat in the keg cold for 4-6 weeks, etc.

[HVB]

This thread has convinced me I need to make an alt, I think those last pictures pushed me over the edge. 

[Big Nake]

This thread has convinced me I need to make an alt, I think those last pictures pushed me over the edge.

Dooo eeet! Oh, and thank nettles for the push. I might head over to my LHBS this week and see if the RedX is available there. I made my WLP011 starter early this morning.

[Brauer]

It's as bad a weizen yeasts. I've never filtered it before, but I get a smoothness in the flavor with 1007 that I just can't get with WLP001. Might be just because I'm forced to lager it to clear it and that lets the beer mellow. I dunno. IMO there is a slight difference with the yeast.

Sorry for the typo. I meant to say that WLP011 has a similar flavor.

[neddles]

Lots of good feedback from everybody here. This is great. Theres so many styles and ingredients to explore its hard to wrap your head around it sometimes. I too realized that the WLP011 in my fridge was older than I thought. Ill step up a starter for this one and probably brew it sometime in the next week or two. I have several interesting beers on the docket that aim to investigate some unfamiliar styles and ingredients.

[Big Nake]

Lots of good feedback from everybody here. This is great. Theres so many styles and ingredients to explore its hard to wrap your head around it sometimes. I too realized that the WLP011 in my fridge was older than I thought. Ill step up a starter for this one and probably brew it sometime in the next week or two. I have several interesting beers on the docket that aim to investigate some unfamiliar styles and ingredients.

If there are ingredients you want to use (say, RedX), then by all means, employ them in this beer. But it seems to me that Alts are more simple than most brewers want to make them out to be. Generally speaking, simpler is better so look at the things you want to use and then compare that to what a simple altbier recipe typically includes and then reach some type of common ground there. I'm cheating by using standard 2-row base malt instead of pilsner and I may or may not be cheating by using a crystal malt in the beer as well. But I'm going to make what appears to be a simple recipe and it's been 3-4 years since I've had an Altbier on tap here so this is good timing. Cheers. More from the BJCP: Aroma: Clean yet robust and complex aroma of rich malt, noble hops and restrained fruity esters. The malt character reflects German base malt varieties. The hop aroma may vary from moderate to very low, and can have a peppery, floral or perfumy character associated with noble hops. No diacetyl. Appearance: Light amber to orange-bronze to deep copper color, yet stopping short of brown. Brilliant clarity (may be filtered). Thick, creamy, long-lasting off-white head. Flavor: Assertive hop bitterness well balanced by a sturdy yet clean and crisp malt character. The malt presence is moderated by moderately-high to high attenuation, but considerable rich and complex malt flavors remain. Some fruity esters may survive the lagering period. A long-lasting, medium-dry to dry, bittersweet or nutty finish reflects both the hop bitterness and malt complexity. Noble hop flavor can be moderate to low. No roasted malt flavors or harshness. No diacetyl. Some yeast strains may impart a slight sulfury character. A light minerally character is also sometimes present in the finish, but is not required. The apparent bitterness level is sometimes masked by the high malt character; the bitterness can seem as low as moderate if the finish is not very dry. Mouthfeel: Medium-bodied. Smooth. Medium to medium-high carbonation. Astringency low to none. Despite being very full of flavor, is light bodied enough to be consumed as a session beer in its home brewpubs in Düsseldorf. Overall Impression: A well balanced, bitter yet malty, clean, smooth, well-attenuated amber-colored German ale. Comments: A bitter beer balanced by a pronounced malt richness. Fermented at cool ale temperature (60-65?F), and lagered at cold temperatures to produce a cleaner, smoother palate than is typical for most ales. Common variants include Sticke (“secret”) alt, which is slightly stronger, darker, richer and more complex than typical alts. Bitterness rises up to 60 IBUs and is usually dry hopped and lagered for a longer time. Münster alt is typically lower in gravity and alcohol, sour, lighter in color (golden), and can contain a significant portion of wheat. Both Sticke alt and Münster alt should be entered in the specialty category. History: The traditional style of beer from Düsseldorf. “Alt” refers to the “old” style of brewing (i.e., making top-fermented ales) that was common before lager brewing became popular. Predates the isolation of bottom-fermenting yeast strains, though it approximates many characteristics of lager beers. The best examples can be found in brewpubs in the Altstadt (“old town”) section of Düsseldorf. Ingredients: Grists vary, but usually consist of German base malts (usually Pils, sometimes Munich) with small amounts of crystal, chocolate, and/or black malts used to adjust color. Occasionally will include some wheat. Spalt hops are traditional, but other noble hops can also be used. Moderately carbonate water. Clean, highly attenuative ale yeast. A step mash or decoction mash program is traditional. Vital Statistics: OG: 1.046 – 1.054 IBUs: 35 – 50 FG: 1.010 – 1.015 SRM: 11 – 17 ABV: 4.5 – 5.2% Commercial Examples: Altstadt brewpubs: Zum Uerige, Im Füchschen, Schumacher, Zum Schlüssel; other examples: Diebels Alt, Schlösser Alt, Frankenheim Alt

Edited by KenLenard, 30 September 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[BlKtRe]

Alts are tasty. These were the styles I tried to perfect when I first started brewing. I did very well with them when I was competing. 

[neddles]

This thread has convinced me I need to make an alt, I think those last pictures pushed me over the edge. 

Hmm… Drez does 10 gallon batches.  Sniff, sniff…. do I smell a split batch with the 2 yeasts in question? (1007, 011)

[neddles]

Ya know the other thing I was thinking, with all this talk of Altbier… isn't my OP recipe (with 100% Red-X base malt) actually more like a lighter colored Munich Dunkel fermented with ale yeast than an Altbier? 

 

The OP recipe wasn't really designed to fit into any style I just threw Alt. out there as what seemed closest at the time. I really should make a "closer to style "Alt. at some point and get a handle on what the style is. Again, I've never even tasted one.

Edited by nettles, 30 September 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[HVB]

Hmm… Drez does 10 gallon batches.  Sniff, sniff…. do I smell a split batch with the 2 yeasts in question? (1007, 011)

I was actually thinking of 1007 and 1056 or wlp001

[neddles]

I was actually thinking of 1007 and 1056 or wlp001

Either way.

[HVB]

Either way.

My "alt" will just be 100% red x and then hopped with hallertau for everything (FWH, 5, 0) except bittering.  I plan to use magnum for that.  It may not be 100% authentic but I think it will be a nice change for me.

[Big Nake]

Ya know the other thing I was thinking, with all this talk of Altbier… isn't my OP recipe (with 100% Red-X base malt) actually more like a lighter colored Munich Dunkel fermented with ale yeast than an Altbier?    The OP recipe wasn't really designed to fit into any style I just threw Alt. out there as what seemed closest at the time. I really should make a "closer to style "Alt. at some point and get a handle on what the style is. Again, I've never even tasted one.

I would say that you're still closer to Alt in your OP than Dunkel which is typically 100% dark Munich (possibly a little bit of Carafa for color) and then lager yeast which brings it into a completely different neighborhood, IMO. The Augustiner Dunkel I sampled in Munich was one of the best beers I had there. I have been threatening to make one of those as well but still haven't pulled the trigger on it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Alts are tasty. These were the styles I tried to perfect when I first started brewing. I did very well with them when I was competing. 

 

I love them. I think it's a good beer to perfect because every flaw sticks out. If you can brew a delicate ale/lager, you can brew most any traditional beer, IMO.

[SchwanzBrewer]

The only straying from alt in your original recipe was inclusion of roasted malts. You really don't want roast character in an alt, just color. Midnight wheat or dehusked carafa do a good job for color. Like I said earlier though, if you want some roast to it to give it a hint of complexity then go for it.

[Brauer]

Ya know the other thing I was thinking, with all this talk of Altbier… isn't my OP recipe (with 100% Red-X base malt) actually more like a lighter colored Munich Dunkel fermented with ale yeast than an Altbier? 

 

The OP recipe wasn't really designed to fit into any style I just threw Alt. out there as what seemed closest at the time. I really should make a "closer to style "Alt. at some point and get a handle on what the style is. Again, I've never even tasted one.

Some Alts are not unlike a Dunkel. I think you can make a good Alt with nearly all Pilsner or nearly all Munich, as long as you can get it to finish dry. If you don't have luck getting Munich to attenuate, go with more Pilsner.  With mostly Munich it would still be a nice beer, even if it doesn't finish like an Alt; it just might end up more like an American Amber. It's a malt-forward beer, so the important thing is that you use a good malt. I think a Red X Alt is a great experiment.

[neddles]

My "alt" will just be 100% red x and then hopped with hallertau for everything (FWH, 5, 0) except bittering.  I plan to use magnum for that.  It may not be 100% authentic but I think it will be a nice change for me.

Yeah, I wasn't looking for authentic either. I wasn't even trying to make an Alt. Just wanted to try out this malt, make something tasty and malty and make it red, red, red. 

 

 

The only straying from alt in your original recipe was inclusion of roasted malts. You really don't want roast character in an alt, just color. Midnight wheat or dehusked carafa do a good job for color. Like I said earlier though, if you want some roast to it to give it a hint of complexity then go for it.

I read your comment earlier and out of curiosity decided to check Jamil's' BCS recipe for NG Alt. (not Duss. Alt.) when I got home earlier. Funny enough it does call for carafa special for color and then also calls for…wait for it……. 3oz. pale chocolate. So upon seeing this I had to listen to the old Jamil show episode on this style to hear his explanation. I didn't finish the show yet but got into the part with recipe discussion and ingredient selection. Basically he said that the pale chocolate at that level provides for melanoidin complexity and a hint of toast. Not roast but toast. Hmm. That actually sounds nice but not the roast I was looking for. Pretty tempted to just go with just one specialty malt here and the Red-X. Maybe either 3oz. of the pale chocolate or 4oz. of the C120 to make sure we get blood red. 

 

ETA: and now that I see Brauer's comment I forgot to mention that during that podcast there was considerable discussion of Altbier and Munich Dunkel and their similarities (and differences) as well as yeast choices. (no mention of WLP011 or WY1338 which was available at the time. Jamil also echoed Brauer in that you can go with little to no munich or go 100% munich malt. Funny too that an American Amber is the other style I thought to apply this malt to.

Edited by nettles, 30 September 2014 - 07:23 PM.

[Big Nake]

I took my vial of WLP011 out of the fridge on Monday to let it warm up and I made a small (650ml + ½ cup DME) starter for it yesterday. I oxygenated the starter a bit, added a small amount of Wyeast nutrient, added the yeast and got it on the stirplate Tuesday morning and it's foaming and active right now. Pretty quick turnaround. I realize I'm on an "alt tangent" and nettles started a RedX thread but if nothing else, maybe we can compare notes on how we like (or dislike?) the WLP011. I am probably going to get everything ready and have an early brew morning tomorrow (Thurs 10/2) and then try like hell to keep this beer fermenting near 60° to keep it clean.

[Poptop]

I too have some Alt/Red X enthusiasm and plan a batch after my next batch, some time 1st week of November. Will be perfect for the frigid temps that will probably never come. Anyone that wants to play along, please post pics of your Alt's / Reds.........

Edited by Steppedonapoptop, 01 October 2014 - 11:36 AM.