67 replies to this topic

[neddles]

Gonna have a crack at this malt. Any and all suggestions welcome. I guess you could consider this a bit of an Alt of some variety but really I've never tasted an Altbier and never made one either so I'm not going to pretend I know any thing about them or how to make one. I think what I am going for here is a very drinkable, tasty, malty, fall beer that needs to be red. Really red. I want it to come out dry with a just a faint kiss of roast. Hope this works. Please chime in with your thoughts. Can't decide to go with the late addition of Santiam or leave it out.

 

6 gallons

OG 1.047

SRM 15

IBU 32

 

10# Best Malz Red-X 97%

3oz. Fawcett Pale Chocolate (200L) 1.8%

2oz. Fawcett Dark Crystal II (120L) 1.2%

Mash at 152F

 

17g Gr. Magnum @60 min.

15g Santiam @15 min.

 

WLP011 European Ale

Probably ferment around 63F

 

 

[Steve Urquell]

I like the late Santiam addition. What about 1-2oz of RB in place of the choc? It gives red coloration a little better.

[Big Nake]

I like the recipe but I dislike that yeast. Have you used WLP011 before? If so, carry on. If not, hopefully it was just my tastebuds. 1007 could be a good alternative.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

IMO Use the specialty malts if you have them on hand. I wouldn't buy them for the beer since 100% red x is a really tasty beer.

[neddles]

I like the late Santiam addition. What about 1-2oz of RB in place of the choc? It gives red coloration a little better.

Something to think about. RB has a pretty distinctive flavor but either malt should be pretty subtle at those amounts.

 

I like the recipe but I dislike that yeast. Have you used WLP011 before? If so, carry on. If not, hopefully it was just my tastebuds. 1007 could be a good alternative.

Nope. Never used that yeast before. What didn't you like about it? I chose it for it's malt forward profile and because I've never used it before. Also, Brauer speaks highly of that yeast and has apparently used it quite a bit.

 

IMO Use the specialty malts if you have them on hand. I wouldn't buy them for the beer since 100% red x is a really tasty beer.

Yeah I have them on hand. I know you have said this before about the 100% red-x beers. Do you think the small amount of pale chocolate will get me that little touch of roast and would it go well with the Red-X?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

1.8% might add to a subtle background complexity. 

[Big Nake]

Nope. Never used that yeast before. What didn't you like about it? I chose it for it's malt forward profile and because I've never used it before. Also, Brauer speaks highly of that yeast and has apparently used it quite a bit.

This is just a personal opinion and you may end up loving the yeast so take it for what it's worth. When I first read the description (that it was an ale yeast from Munich), I loved the sound of it. Malt forward, clean, authentic European character, etc. I know I would have fermented it cool or on the low end because that's what I typically do on ale yeasts. But I got a bit of funky character that was less than clean. I believe I actually tried the yeast on two separate occasions (just to make sure I didn't screw it up) and it did the same thing. Believe it or not, I actually have a relative fresh vial of it right now because it was suggested as a good yeast for BdG but I never ended up making that beer and every time I go look at my yeast stash, I see this WLP011 and wince. Again, it's probably me so don't put much weight on it.

[BlKtRe]

When I pour my next Red X IpA tonight I will post a pic. I've been using the malt in different percentages in different styles. A few of us in our club were talking about the pricing of Red X and its contributions vs Munich. Interesting thoughts. 

[neddles]

When I pour my next Red X IpA tonight I will post a pic. I've been using the malt in different percentages in different styles. A few of us in our club were talking about the pricing of Red X and its contributions vs Munich. Interesting thoughts. 

I am guessing you are enjoying the flavor of it?

 

How would any of you guys compare it to munich malt?

[BlKtRe]

I am guessing you are enjoying the flavor of it?

 

How would any of you guys compare it to munich malt?

 

Discussions on flavor between the two malts were that they are very similar. Both can be used at 100% of the grist, both have that excellent malt caramel flavor we enjoy. But its my opinion that Munich cannot give the color like Red X can on its own. So this is what makes Red X so interesting. Cost could be an issue but instead of using two grains for that color brewers could use a single grain instead. I like the flavor. 

[Brauer]

I like the recipe but I dislike that yeast. Have you used WLP011 before? If so, carry on. If not, hopefully it was just my tastebuds. 1007 could be a good alternative.

It's such an underused yeast, in my opinion. As clean 1007, without the clarity problems. It will throw a little mild fruit if fermented warm and can drop out early if fermented too cool, but it works great with a fermentation that starts around 60-62F then ramps up to 65F in a few days. It is one of the workhorse yeasts in my brewery. I never get any "funky" flavors from it, but it's not clear what flavors you mean. Perhaps it's just my idea of a good beer flavor. It does highlight malty flavors, so I wouldn't use it for an APA or IPA, or if you don't really like malt.

[Big Nake]

It's such an underused yeast, in my opinion. As clean 1007, without the clarity problems. It will throw a little mild fruit if fermented warm and can drop out early if fermented too cool, but it works great with a fermentation that starts around 60-62F then ramps up to 65F in a few days. It is one of the workhorse yeasts in my brewery. I never get any "funky" flavors from it, but it's not clear what flavors you mean. Perhaps it's just my idea of a good beer flavor. It does highlight malty flavors, so I wouldn't use it for an APA or IPA, or if you don't really like malt.

Because you have so much experience with this yeast, I'm sure you're right and I'm sure that the chances that nettles will like the yeast character are high. Keep in mind that I play with a lot of lager yeast and when I use ale yeasts, it's usually American (1056, 1272) or English (1028, 1968) and occasionally German (2565 or 1007)... all of which are relatively clean and neutral and I'm not into Belgians, hefes, Brett beers, etc. so anything that comes across that doesn't seem 'neutral' hits me the wrong way. I would have no trouble making some sort of pseudo-altbier with this vial of WLP011 that I have and try to ferment it cool (62° or so) to keep it clean. The ideal range is 65-70 and its attenuation range is 65-70% (pretty low) which suggests a low mash temp for my system. I could swear that the description for this yeast said it was from Munich but I might be thinking of Wyeast 1388 (1338?). From White Labs... Malty, Northern European-origin ale yeast. Low ester production, giving a clean profile. Little to no sulfur production. Low attenuation helps to contribute to the malty character. Good for Alt, Kolsch, malty English ales, and fruit beers.

[positiveContact]

Because you have so much experience with this yeast, I'm sure you're right and I'm sure that the chances that nettles will like the yeast character are high. Keep in mind that I play with a lot of lager yeast and when I use ale yeasts, it's usually American (1056, 1272) or English (1028, 1968) and occasionally German (2565 or 1007)... all of which are relatively clean and neutral and I'm not into Belgians, hefes, Brett beers, etc. so anything that comes across that doesn't seem 'neutral' hits me the wrong way. I would have no trouble making some sort of pseudo-altbier with this vial of WLP011 that I have and try to ferment it cool (62° or so) to keep it clean. The ideal range is 65-70 and its attenuation range is 65-70% (pretty low) which suggests a low mash temp for my system. I could swear that the description for this yeast said it was from Munich but I might be thinking of Wyeast 1388 (1338?). From White Labs... Malty, Northern European-origin ale yeast. Low ester production, giving a clean profile. Little to no sulfur production. Low attenuation helps to contribute to the malty character. Good for Alt, Kolsch, malty English ales, and fruit beers.

 

as has been mentioned in the past - sometimes the manufacturer temp ranges aren't ideal. 

[Big Nake]

as has been mentioned in the past - sometimes the manufacturer temp ranges aren't ideal.

True. I have also used things like WLP001 and 1056 near 60° with nice, clean results (you need a good amount of healthy yeast and oxygenation is a plus) so you just never know. FTR, I just searched for Jamil's Alt and I find various iterations of it online. Appears to be mostly pils and then around 15% Munich 10 and 15% Vienna and then small amounts (4 to 6 ounces) of either CaraMunich or C60 (a surprise to me) and then a small amount (1-2 ounces) of dehusked carafa for color. Magnum for 60 minutes (½ ounce at 14% for 7 AAU) and then an ounce of something like Hallertau for 30 and then 1007 for the yeast. Mash at 149° because the yeast is a low-attenuater. This is classified as a Dusseldorf Alt. I would totally try this and give the WLP011 another shot. If it doesn't come out well for me, I would then assume strike three for WLP011.

Edited by KenLenard, 29 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

True. I have also used things like WLP001 and 1056 near 60° with nice, clean results (you need a good amount of healthy yeast and oxygenation is a plus) so you just never know. FTR, I just searched for Jamil's Alt and I find various iterations of it online. Appears to be mostly pils and then around 15% Munich 10 and 15% Vienna and then small amounts (4 to 6 ounces) of either CaraMunich or C60 (a surprise to me) and then a small amount (1-2 ounces) of dehusked carafa for color. Magnum for 60 minutes (½ ounce at 14% for 7 AAU) and then an ounce of something like Hallertau for 30 and then 1007 for the yeast. Mash at 149° because the yeast is a low-attenuater. This is classified as a Dusseldorf Alt. I would totally try this and give the WLP011 another shot. If it doesn't come out well for me, I would then assume strike three for WLP011.

 

I don't know if that is the direct white labs version of 1007 or not, but IMO, you can't beat 1007 for alts. Ferment it cool. 56-58. Let it warm to finish. Shill as cold as possible and fine the crap out of it to get it to clear. Nice thing is, most beers I've made with it do well with lagering.

[Big Nake]

I don't know if that is the direct white labs version of 1007 or not, but IMO, you can't beat 1007 for alts. Ferment it cool. 56-58. Let it warm to finish. Shill as cold as possible and fine the crap out of it to get it to clear. Nice thing is, most beers I've made with it do well with lagering.

I agree on all counts. I like 1007 and the last time I used it in an altbier it was uber-clear.

[BlKtRe]

I agree on all counts. I like 1007 and the last time I used it in an altbier it was uber-clear.

 

I switched to 1056 @ 60*. Clears faster and not a soul has figured out my change in my Alts. 

[Big Nake]

Okay, in the spirit of nettles' beer, I put together a recipe and will do something similar (pseudo-alt) with the WLP011. Turns out my vial has a BEST BY date of April 2014 which is not as fresh as I thought. I will make a starter and assume it will be okay. Here's what I did...

Pseudo Altbier

7.50 lbs American 2-Row malt (a combination of the rest of this Malteurop 2-row and Rahr Pale Ale malt)
1.75 lbs Best Malz Munich 10
6 ounces CaraBohemian (Approx. 75°L and in place of the CaraMunich)
1½ ounces dehusked German Carafa III
.75 ounces German Northern Brewer 9.6% for 60
1 ounce Hallertau pellets @ 2.7% plus ¼ ounces Hallertau pellets @ 4.3% for 30
WLP011 Euro Ale yeast

OG: 1.055, FG: 1.014, IBU: 43, SRM: 11, ABV: 5.3%

Single infusion mash at 149°. 100% filtered tap water adjusted for a 'balanced ratio'. I will attempt to ferment in the low 60s (60° to 62° or so) and I will probably swirl it a bit, be patient with it and possibly warm it up towards the end of primary to make sure the gravity is as low as it will go. Then it will probably sit in secondary at room temp for some amount of time and then go to a keg and 'lager' at 35° for a good 2 months. I am using up the end of some of the stuff I have laying around and my guess is that nettles' beer will come out different (and better) because of the RED-X. I have not seen this in any of my LHBS yet but I could get it online, I suppose.

Edited by KenLenard, 29 September 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Genesee Ted]

My first reaction to the recipe in the OP was ¨I would ditch the specialties¨ and then I stepped back to try and think about why you were adding them.  I guess after thinking about it, adding them will be worth a shot, but I really think they could just be superfluous here.  Usually, people use those malts in those quantities to achieve a red color, but the Red X already takes care of that.  It is certainly a worthy experiment of course, and could actually lead to something great.   I am sure it will be a great beer either way!

[Brauer]

FTR, I just searched for Jamil's Alt and I find various iterations of it online. Appears to be mostly pils and then around 15% Munich 10 and 15% Vienna and then small amounts (4 to 6 ounces) of either CaraMunich or C60 (a surprise to me) and then a small amount (1-2 ounces) of dehusked carafa for color. Magnum for 60 minutes (½ ounce at 14% for 7 AAU) and then an ounce of something like Hallertau for 30 and then 1007 for the yeast. Mash at 149° because the yeast is a low-attenuater. This is classified as a Dusseldorf Alt. I would totally try this and give the WLP011 another shot. If it doesn't come out well for me, I would then assume strike three for WLP011.

I always mash an Alt around 149F. I want them to finish at 1.008-1.010, which I get with WLP011 (about 80% attenuation). OG should be 1.048, though. 1.055 is a Sticke Alt. When I use CaraMunich or CaraAroma in an Alt, I usually use about 2.5 oz.  I start fermentation at 60-62F, but I try to bring it up a couple degrees before fermentation slows to get full attenuation. The big benefit of this yeast is that once it is done, it drops like a rock and leaves a crystal clear beer without extensive lagering. I like the flavor of 1007, but it flocs worse than a Lager yeast, and WLP001 has a similar flavor.