72 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

Wait .. you use yeast?

 

i just like to dip the same wooden stick in the chilled wort every time.  it works so i don't see what the big deal is.

[Jdtirado]

Am I missing something that you long  time brewers already know.  Mr. Malty doesn't have how much DME to use in order to get a proper gravity for the starter.  Come back yeast calc.

[Brauer]

i just like to dip the same wooden stick in the chilled wort every time.  it works so i don't see what the big deal is.

It's not a big deal.  It's still best practice to pitch the right amount of yeast, or a decent estimate if you can't count the cells.

 

From Kai's cell count data, I use my own analysis to estimate 130-150 billion cells produced per liter, on a stir plate, in addition to what you've pitched.  So, from a fresh vial, a 2 L starter should give you ~460-500 billion cells (150 growth x 2)+200 initial=500. From a half-dead (~2 months old) vial into 2L, you'd expect ~360-400 billion.  

 

That should give you numbers close to Kai's calculators, until you get down near or below a 1 L starter, where growth becomes constrained at typical pitch rates.

[Brauer]

Am I missing something that you long  time brewers already know.  Mr. Malty doesn't have how much DME to use in order to get a proper gravity for the starter.  Come back yeast calc.

You want about a 1.036, or 9 Plato wort.  That's about 3.5 oz. or 100 g DME per liter.

[positiveContact]

It's not a big deal.  It's still best practice to pitch the right amount of yeast, or a decent estimate if you can't count the cells.

 

From Kai's cell count data, I use my own analysis to estimate 130-150 billion cells produced per liter, on a stir plate, in addition to what you've pitched.  So, from a fresh vial, a 2 L starter should give you ~460-500 billion cells (150 growth x 2)+200 initial=500. From a half-dead (~2 months old) vial into 2L, you'd expect ~360-400 billion.  

 

That should give you numbers close to Kai's calculators, until you get down near or below a 1 L starter, where growth becomes constrained at typical pitch rates.

 

I'm still curious what the non-yeast-calculators do.  do they vary their yeast starter sizes based on volume and gravity?  if yes by how much?  do they factor in how much yeast they are starting with based on viablity?  yes these are all estimates but they'll get you closer to the mark than essentially doing no estimate at all.  brewers friend seems to have a reasonable calculator so for now I'm just going to use that until yeast calc comes back.

 

You want about a 1.036, or 9 Plato wort.  That's about 3.5 oz. or 100 g DME per liter.

 

i use 100g/L.  fortunately it's easy for me to remember.

[3rd party JKor]

My favorite feature of the yeast calculators is the built in correction for viability based on production date.  That single factor makes a huge difference in the final quantity of yeast you get from a given starter.  For example, Mr. Malty calculates that for a beer that requires 230BB cells it will take a 1.4L starter with a 1 month old yeast pack.  If the pack is two months old a 1.4L starter will only produce 188BB cells, if it's 3 months old it will be 142BB cells.

 

Whether or not the calculator gives you the "right" amount to pitch, the important thing is that they give you a solid reference point.

[SchwanzBrewer]

brewersfriend uses kai's calc. 

[denny]

Am I missing something that you long  time brewers already know.  Mr. Malty doesn't have how much DME to use in order to get a proper gravity for the starter.  Come back yeast calc.

 

Never even noticed that because I always use .75 oz. of DME per cup of water.  That getys you around 1.035ish.  Then I make 2 qt. for a beer under 1.065 and 3 qt. for a beer over that.

[BlKtRe]

Experience over the years is how we learned to build starters to match OG, volume, and yeast age. I'm glad the calcs came out but since I had years of experience building starters before those calcs were available I have no reason to use them. Great tool tho. 

[denny]

Experience over the years is how we learned to build starters to match OG, volume, and yeast age. I'm glad the calcs came out but since I had years of experience building starters before those calcs were available I have no reason to use them. Great tool tho. 

 

When I started making starters, there were no calculators to help you.  You simply judged by results.  After doing that for quite a few years, you kinda learn what you need.  I use a calculator sometimes, but my results aren't really any different from when I don't.

[positiveContact]

perhaps a test is in order...

[positiveContact]

10 gallons of 1.067 OG wort, ale yeast

start with a 60 day old wyeast smack pack stored properly

make one 2L starter and split, half for keeping, half for another starter

make another starter with half of the first starter to pitch into 10 gallons of wort.

 

How big should the second 1.036 OG starter be?  no using a calculator or calculations.

 

I have a pretty good idea but that's only b/c I basically just went through a similar step up.  Ask me in a couple of months and I'd be going back to my notes to check which would take me about as long as it would to just let the calculator spit out an answer at me.

[HVB]

perhaps a test is in order...

you have time for tests?

[positiveContact]

you have time for tests?

 

see following post.  only took me a minute to type out

[denny]

10 gallons of 1.067 OG wort, ale yeast

start with a 60 day old wyeast smack pack stored properly

make one 2L starter and split, half for keeping, half for another starter

make another starter with half of the first starter to pitch into 10 gallons of wort.

 

How big should the second 1.036 OG starter be?  no using a calculator or calculations.

 

I have a pretty good idea but that's only b/c I basically just went through a similar step up.  Ask me in a couple of months and I'd be going back to my notes to check which would take me about as long as it would to just let the calculator spit out an answer at me.

 

3-4 qt. is what I'd do.  Probably closer to 3.

[3rd party JKor]

 

 

Ask me in a couple of months and I'd be going back to my notes to check which would take me about as long as it would to just let the calculator spit out an answer at me.

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah.  Definitely don't expect me to remember anything I've done in the past. 

[positiveContact]

well i'd love to confirm how close you are to the calculator but it doesn't work here.

 

Spoiler

I believe you are about right at 3 qt though.  nice work.

Edited by TheGuv, 27 January 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[positiveContact]

okay - now it works.

 

Spoiler

denny, you are overpitching by about 50%.  you only need about 2.2 qts.

[3rd party JKor]

You forgot to put "overpitching" in quotes. 

[denny]

okay - now it works.

 

Spoiler

denny, you are overpitching by about 50%.  you only need about 2.2 qts.

Good to know what the calculators say.