61 replies to this topic

[3rd party JKor]

There are other people out there doing steam injection, but I'm not necessarily following anyone else's model on the system. I'm melding stuff I've seen and stuff I've daydreamed about.

[stellarbrew]

Taking a break from the discussion of steam thermodynamics ...here's what I'm going for with this system:Your typical RIMS/HERMS/whatever system is based around control of the mash temp. Of course, this makes sense because it's generally the most difficult thing to do in the brew process. Controlling the mash temp is important to me, but I'm going for full system control here. The system will be virtually touch-free. At the beginning of the brew day I will weigh out my grains, hops and any other kettle additions (whirlfloc, etc.), load the grains into the mill hopper and the hops/etc. in the the timed doser. From there, I won't touch the process until the yeast is ready to pitch. Additionally, the system is going to be set up for CIP, so cleaning will be minimal. This is going to be built in my basment and will be powered completely by electricity. The system will be controlled via process control software loaded onto a PC. The software I have is a very powerful suite designed for data acquisition and process control. The expandability of the control hardware is essentially unlimited. The preliminary system design that I put together consists of 37 control points including 6 thermocouples, 3 pressure sensor, 2 flow meters, 10 solenoids, 3 level floats, 1 limit switch and 12 relays that control various pumps, motors and fans. Ther process will be controlled from milling all the way through the end of primary ferment. Transferring to kegs and drinking the beer is still going to be manual. :(OK, any questions?

Sounds like a very ambitious, challenging, and potentially rewarding project. George Jetson would be jealous.Have you drafted any P&IDs yet?

[3rd party JKor]

Sounds like a very ambitious, challenging, and potentially rewarding project. George Jetson would be jealous.Have you drafted any P&IDs yet?

I've done the initial draft of the P&ID. Looks simple on paper. I'm pretty sure building it is going to be a lot harder than it seems in my head (as usual).Are you a ChemE?

[stellarbrew]

I've done the initial draft of the P&ID. Looks simple on paper. I'm pretty sure building it is going to be a lot harder than it seems in my head (as usual).Are you a ChemE?

No doubt, there are always unforeseen challenges which emerge in a project like this. It should be fun finding solutions. If it was easy, everybody would have a system like that.I'm an ME, but I do plenty of process work in power plant design, so I have to turn out a lot of P&IDs. If you would care to share it, I'm sure plenty of folks on the board would be interested in seeing your P&ID.

[3rd party JKor]

Yeah, I'll post it up shortly. Probably later tonight.

[Stout_fan]

...hot, wet gas...

I make lots of that on a regular basis.

[3rd party JKor]

Yeah, I'll post it up shortly. Probably later tonight.

It still needs some work, but I'll get to it soon.

[3rd party JKor]

I make lots of that on a regular basis.

That's the only thing members of this board make more of than beer!

[3rd party JKor]

I picked up a decent lot of off-brand Swagelok compression fittings on eBay last night. The Swagelok 1/2"NPT adapter have been going for about $8-10/pc. and they're about $16/pc. new. I got 20, plus a couple of bulkhead fittings and NPT to compression tees for about $4.50/pc. So I'm off and running. This project is really going to start in earnest the week of August 24th. I'm off that week, so I'm going to be going picking up a lot of my materials. Hopefully, I can get my kegs and tube stock, so I can start fabricating the structure of the brew system. I'd like to get the system to the point where I can brew with it by the time it gets too cold outside to brew, which is probably early November if Mother Nature cooperates. It's a pretty aggressive schedule considering the scope, so we'll see.

[3rd party JKor]

As much as I'd like to go all stainless, I have to draw the line at the solenoid valves. Stainless solenoids in 1/2" are hard to find and the ones you can find would probably double the cost of the brewery. McMaster has 1/2" stainless solenoids for the bargain price of $493/ea. Did I say double? I meant quadruple. I think I'll stick with these brass ones for $32.

[BrewerGeorge]

How quickly do you think you'll be able to ramp?The steam is cool, but I suspect you can store a similar amount of energy in a typical HERMS with a 15 gal reservoir. Also, it would be much easier to use a larger element in a HERMS because you wouldn't have to build a safe pressure vessel.

[3rd party JKor]

How quickly do you think you'll be able to ramp?The steam is cool, but I suspect you can store a similar amount of energy in a typical HERMS with a 15 gal reservoir. Also, it would be much easier to use a larger element in a HERMS because you wouldn't have to build a safe pressure vessel.

I don't know. That's a good question. It depends how fast superheated water converts to steam. I'm pretty sure it'll ramp faster than a HERMS, at least that's the impressin I got from the stuff I've read about people using it. Maybe 3-4°C. How fast are people getting their HERMS to ramp?For the pressure vessel, I'm going to be using a Presto 23-qt pressure canner. No building necessary. I'm just going to add a 1/2" compression fitting to the lid for the steam line.

Edited by JKoravos, 10 August 2009 - 10:54 AM.

[stellarbrew]

As much as I'd like to go all stainless, I have to draw the line at the solenoid valves. Stainless solenoids in 1/2" are hard to find and the ones you can find would probably double the cost of the brewery. McMaster has 1/2" stainless solenoids for the bargain price of $493/ea. Did I say double? I meant quadruple. I think I'll stick with these brass ones for $32.

You'll probably not want to use that valve on your steam line, or for boiling water or wort. Max temp rating is listed as 175 F continuous.

[stellarbrew]

It depends how fast superheated water converts to steam.

It should flash about as fast as you can drop the pressure.

[BrewerGeorge]

I don't know. That's a good question. It depends how fast superheated water converts to steam. I'm pretty sure it'll ramp faster than a HERMS, at least that's the impressin I got from the stuff I've read about people using it. Maybe 3-4°C. How fast are people getting their HERMS to ramp?For the pressure vessel, I'm going to be using a Presto 23-qt pressure canner. No building necessary. I'm just going to add a 1/2" compression fitting to the lid for the steam line.

It depends, of course, on the size of the mash. I get about 3-4 F/min on a typical 12lb mash. My HERMS is not very typical because I flow wort constantly through the coils and control the temp of the sink water only. The sink is heated with a 4500W element to a temp typically 10F above my target mash temp. I'm sure I could get a faster heat up rate if I raised delta T by bringing the sink to a boil, but then I'd lose my control point. Anyway, 3-4F/min is the input capacity of the element, forcing a higher HUR would just be taking stored enthalpy from the water.I realize you're using the pressure canner. You've recognized the problem with that, though, which is that you're going to be limited to a 1500W hot plate as the heat source. I referenced building as an alternative to use a more energetic heat source. It's easy to build something that uses 5500W as long as it doesn't have to be a pressure vessel.

[3rd party JKor]

It depends, of course, on the size of the mash. I get about 3-4 F/min on a typical 12lb mash. My HERMS is not very typical because I flow wort constantly through the coils and control the temp of the sink water only. The sink is heated with a 4500W element to a temp typically 10F above my target mash temp. I'm sure I could get a faster heat up rate if I raised delta T by bringing the sink to a boil, but then I'd lose my control point. Anyway, 3-4F/min is the input capacity of the element, forcing a higher HUR would just be taking stored enthalpy from the water.I realize you're using the pressure canner. You've recognized the problem with that, though, which is that you're going to be limited to a 1500W hot plate as the heat source. I referenced building as an alternative to use a more energetic heat source. It's easy to build something that uses 5500W as long as it doesn't have to be a pressure vessel.

OK, I see what you're saying about the larger pressure vessel. Yes, it would be much harder to increase the heating capacity of the system compared to a HERMS. The next step would probably be a custom made Sanke steam generator.

[Stout_fan]

The steam is cool, ...

Important safety note: The above statement is technically inaccurate.

[3rd party JKor]

Important safety note: The above statement is technically inaccurate.

I got my lot of compression fittings last night. I'm really starting to get jazzed about this.

[Recklessdeck]

OK, I see what you're saying about the larger pressure vessel. Yes, it would be much harder to increase the heating capacity of the system compared to a HERMS. The next step would probably be a custom made Sanke steam generator.

+1Maybe one of those short and fat 1/4th barrels. Get a 2 inch tri clover end cap with a coupler welded in like Swag makes, just bigger. I planned to make something like this, even put together a parts list. If you are interested I'd be happy to elaborate.

[3rd party JKor]

+1Maybe one of those short and fat 1/4th barrels. Get a 2 inch tri clover end cap with a coupler welded in like Swag makes, just bigger. I planned to make something like this, even put together a parts list. If you are interested I'd be happy to elaborate.

Yeah, I'd love to see it...