49 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

This is something I have always wondered (not having a CFC myself). If you use a CFC and recirc, you are dropping the temp VERY quickly on a small volume of work (in the CFC) and then returning to the relatively warm main kettle volume. After you form (coagulate) those protein solids, do they "redissolve" or un-coagulate when they go back into the kettle?

Interesting point - I just use an IC so it doesn't apply to me but interesting all the same.

[xd_haze]

I don't think that your batch sitting at above 180 for 15-20 minutes is causing you problems with your cold break. I'm no expert, but from what I understand, you get good cold break with a quick drop, which you are getting with your CFC. Imagine how long it takes to chill commercial batches. Even with their very efficient glycol plate chillers, it probably takes 15-20 minutes!You might look elsewhere in your process for the culprit. Mike

Yes, chilling the wort from boiling to pitch temp. I'm going directly from kettle to fermenter through my CFC. The CFC isn't terribly efficient, it takes maybe 15-20 minutes to get the whole batch through there. So a good chunk of the wort is sitting there near boiling for 10+ minutes. I think that's affecting my cold break.Could be a water/mash issue as well. I'll try the recirc/chill first because it's easier than fooling with the mash pH, water chemistry etc. I'll fool with that other stuff later.

[No Party JKor]

I don't think that your batch sitting at above 180 for 15-20 minutes is causing you problems with your cold break. I'm no expert, but from what I understand, you get good cold break with a quick drop, which you are getting with your CFC. Imagine how long it takes to chill commercial batches. Even with their very efficient glycol plate chillers, it probably takes 15-20 minutes!You might look elsewhere in your process for the culprit. Mike

Good point...I guess it could be that I'm carrying the cold break into the fermenter, although that's probably a pretty common thing among HBers.

Edited by JKoravos, 13 July 2009 - 08:32 AM.

[tag]

???Recirc chilling should cause you to reach a lower temp at a much faster rate.

What you want to do is chill the wort as quickly as possible a la CFC. (Each small amount of wort in the CFC gets chilled very quickly, which improves the amount of cold break formed.)Adding the chilled wort back to the BK adds the thermal mass of the kettle which will require more chilling.Jamil's purposes for recirculation chilling were 1. getting the entire volume of wort below 140F to stop DMS formation from its precursors. First, light-colored malts like Pilsner malts are the only malts with enough DMS to worry about and second, a good 90-120 minute boil will evaporate the precursors so there'll be none left to get converted. A downside is that the 140 - 80F range is the danger zone as far as bacterial contamination is concerned. https://www.howtobre...chapter7-4.htmlThe second benefit he sights is leaving the cold break behind in the boil kettle. This is controversial and most brewers don't worry about it. https://www.brewingt....2/barchet.htmlA longer mash will make sure that all of the starches are converted. Starches themselves can cause haze.

[No Party JKor]

Actually, the main reason I want to go to recirc chilling is to control my pitch temp better. The way my system is set up I have an awful time getting a consistent temp out of the CFC. The valve on the outlet of my pump just doesn't have the ability to control the flow finely enough to dial in a good temp out of the CFC. Plus, as the wort in the kettle cools over the course of the transfer the CFC outlet temp changes. It's a major PITA fighting with the pump outlet valve for the whole chill. I'd much rather just recirc back into my kettle until I'm where I want to be.I'm not sure why adding the wort back to the kettle would require more chilling. That doesn't make sense from a heat transfer perspective, unless you're saying that you also have to chill the brew kettle(?), in that case the thermal mass of the kettle itself is tiny compared to the wort, <5% of the total thermal mass of the system. And for my system, the chilling would be much more effective doing a recirc because I could run the pump full on, rather than having to throttle back to get my flow rate just right to match the heat transfer rate of the chiller, thereby more effectively utilizing the chilling water.Regarding the mash...I mash for a solid 60 minutes, often longer. I don't think it's a conversion issues. Though I don't check my conversion.Good suggestions, though.

[stellarbrew]

Have you looked at the PH of your mash, wort, and beer? Although my knowlege in this area is limited, the very knowledgeable people seem to consistenty point to proper pH control as an important factor in preventing chill haze. For example, too high of a mash pH can extract an abundance poyphenols, which in combination with certain proteins, are responsible for forming chill haze. Also, I think I have heard that the pH of the wort during the boil will play a major part in the final flavor and appearance of the beer, with a high pH causing the beer to darken considerably, and becoming more haze-prone.

[tag]

Actually, the main reason I want to go to recirc chilling is to control my pitch temp better. The way my system is set up I have an awful time getting a consistent temp out of the CFC. The valve on the outlet of my pump just doesn't have the ability to control the flow finely enough to dial in a good temp out of the CFC. Plus, as the wort in the kettle cools over the course of the transfer the CFC outlet temp changes. It's a major PITA fighting with the pump outlet valve for the whole chill. I'd much rather just recirc back into my kettle until I'm where I want to be.

Ahh, gotcha. I have a thermometer on my Therminator output and adjust the water or wort flow as necessary. My water is colder in the Winter (doh) so I have to decrease its flow. When the water is warmer in the Summer I have to decrease the wort flow.

I'm not sure why adding the wort back to the kettle would require more chilling. That doesn't make sense from a heat transfer perspective, unless you're saying that you also have to chill the brew kettle(?), in that case the thermal mass of the kettle itself is tiny compared to the wort, <5% of the total thermal mass of the system. And for my system, the chilling would be much more effective doing a recirc because I could run the pump full on, rather than having to throttle back to get my flow rate just right to match the heat transfer rate of the chiller, thereby more effectively utilizing the chilling water.

Well 5% more is still 5% more. I'm not sure that running the pump faster necessarily improves the chilling (unless the CFC output is colder than you want). More water flow will remove more heat though.

Regarding the mash...I mash for a solid 60 minutes, often longer. I don't think it's a conversion issues. Though I don't check my conversion.

Starch will cause a permanent haze that doesn't go away as it warms up so that should be easy to check.Or just chill and add gelatin!

[tag]

I just re-reviewed that article on cold break and he states that the cold break does separate at higher temperatures (that's why it's only seen when cold - doh).No idea if forming, then breaking up, then reforming, etc. would have any effect on the total amount.

[No Party JKor]

Ahh, gotcha. I have a thermometer on my Therminator output and adjust the water or wort flow as necessary. My water is colder in the Winter (doh) so I have to decrease its flow. When the water is warmer in the Summer I have to decrease the wort flow.Well 5% more is still 5% more. I'm not sure that running the pump faster necessarily improves the chilling (unless the CFC output is colder than you want). More water flow will remove more heat though.Starch will cause a permanent haze that doesn't go away as it warms up so that should be easy to check.Or just chill and add gelatin!

The haze does clear up as the beer warms. For my existing beers, I'm going to add gelatin to clear them up and hopefully i can pin down the weak point in my process in the next few batches.

[Slainte]

Have you looked at the PH of your mash, wort, and beer? Although my knowlege in this area is limited, the very knowledgeable people seem to consistenty point to proper pH control as an important factor in preventing chill haze. For example, too high of a mash pH can extract an abundance poyphenols, which in combination with certain proteins, are responsible for forming chill haze. Also, I think I have heard that the pH of the wort during the boil will play a major part in the final flavor and appearance of the beer, with a high pH causing the beer to darken considerably, and becoming more haze-prone.

Yep.Proper pH is essential.You want it to be around 5.2-5.5 (at 20 C) at the start of the boil. Also, I would recommend something like Whirlfloc.

[No Party JKor]

I wish I could get a good pic of the beer now. It's crystal clear, looks beautiful. I'm definitely not one to fret over clear beer, but it's nice when you can give a guest a glass of crystal clear beer. I think that makes for a better experience for the 'end user', especially if the person isn't a homebrewer or a 10th level beer nerd.

[xd_haze]

I think I'm an 11th level beer nerd, and I care about clear beer -- a lot. I think that appearance is a significant component of the beer aesthetic. I'd rather have a beer that tastes good than one that merely looks good. But I'd rather have one that both looks and tastes good. Also, there is significant evidence that visual experiences inform gustatory and olfactory experiences. I even read an article that suggested that beliefs inform sense experience generally. It was a nice bit of neuroscience; if you believe it is good, it will actually taste better than if you believe it is bad. Well, anyway -- I use gelatin on any beer I want to drink relatively fresh. I want my APAs and EPAs in a matter of weeks, but I also want them to look like amber glass. Gelatin does it. Finish fermentation, crash cool, gelatin in the primary, keg a few days later. Thats right. Primary. Force carb and drink. If I dry hop, I add a week in the keg with the leaves before I tap. Otherwise it is grain to crystal clear in the keg in three weeks, thanks to Knox.Mike

I wish I could get a good pic of the beer now. It's crystal clear, looks beautiful. I'm definitely not one to fret over clear beer, but it's nice when you can give a guest a glass of crystal clear beer. I think that makes for a better experience for the 'end user', especially if the person isn't a homebrewer or a 10th level beer nerd.

[Big Nake]

I think I'm an 11th level beer nerd, and I care about clear beer -- a lot. I think that appearance is a significant component of the beer aesthetic. I'd rather have a beer that tastes good than one that merely looks good. But I'd rather have one that both looks and tastes good. Also, there is significant evidence that visual experiences inform gustatory and olfactory experiences. I even read an article that suggested that beliefs inform sense experience generally. It was a nice bit of neuroscience; if you believe it is good, it will actually taste better than if you believe it is bad. Well, anyway -- I use gelatin on any beer I want to drink relatively fresh. I want my APAs and EPAs in a matter of weeks, but I also want them to look like amber glass. Gelatin does it. Finish fermentation, crash cool, gelatin in the primary, keg a few days later. Thats right. Primary. Force carb and drink. If I dry hop, I add a week in the keg with the leaves before I tap. Otherwise it is grain to crystal clear in the keg in three weeks, thanks to Knox.Mike

Yeah, that's good stuff. The quote, "You first taste a beer with your eyes" comes to mind. I also like to say that I want my beer to look like "beer", not "homebrew". I had a party at my house last weekend and I brought my draft fridge outside with 2 full kegs (one with my Hacienda Lager and the other with my British Blonde). The fridge was brought out a few hours before the party and the kegs about 1 hour beforehand... the kegs may have been a little shaken up because the first pours were cloudy. One of my buds tapped a beer, held it up and was like, "Ewwww..." and I said, "just drink it". But by the 3rd or 4th pour, both faucets were pouring crystal clear beer and 10 gallons were put away in about 6 or 7 hours... both kegs drained. That may not have happened if the beer "appeared" to be nasty. Whirfloc in the kettle, allow the brewpot to settle a little, rack from brewpot to primary, allow primary to fully ferment and yeast to floc, gel in the secondary and then some cold conditioning time in the keg before serving... crystal clear beer. Cheers.

[No Party JKor]

Yeah, that's good stuff. The quote, "You first taste a beer with your eyes" comes to mind. I also like to say that I want my beer to look like "beer", not "homebrew". I had a party at my house last weekend and I brought my draft fridge outside with 2 full kegs (one with my Hacienda Lager and the other with my British Blonde). The fridge was brought out a few hours before the party and the kegs about 1 hour beforehand... the kegs may have been a little shaken up because the first pours were cloudy. One of my buds tapped a beer, held it up and was like, "Ewwww..." and I said, "just drink it". But by the 3rd or 4th pour, both faucets were pouring crystal clear beer and 10 gallons were put away in about 6 or 7 hours... both kegs drained. That may not have happened if the beer "appeared" to be nasty. Whirfloc in the kettle, allow the brewpot to settle a little, rack from brewpot to primary, allow primary to fully ferment and yeast to floc, gel in the secondary and then some cold conditioning time in the keg before serving... crystal clear beer. Cheers.

Another nice thing about the gelatin is the stuff that settles out is in relatively big clumps and if things get shaken up they resettle again really quickly.

[Big Nake]

Yes, I've noticed that too. When I rack from secondary to keg, I usually get my secondary up on a counter or my back bar a little while beforehand. I'll notice that even though I was careful, I kicked up some yeast. But a few minutes later, all settled. Yes, if you're a clear-beerhead, gelatin is a wonderful thing.

[HVB]

How much gelatin are you using for a 5 gallon batch? 1 tsp?

[CaptRon]

Is this just the standard Knox gelatin that you use? and are you just dumping it in from the packet or melting in with some h20 or something?

[xd_haze]

I boil about a half cup to a cup of water, let it cool a bit and dissolve one packet of gelatin in that for 5 gallons. I either add the gelatin to the primary and stir it in or put it directly in the keg as I'm filling it. I use two packets for 10 gallons. I suspect you could get by with less.Mike

Is this just the standard Knox gelatin that you use? and are you just dumping it in from the packet or melting in with some h20 or something?

[Big Nake]

I probably use somewhere around a tablespoon. I don't measure, I just eyeball it. I know I've gone over this somewhere, but here's my process:Get some cold water in a bowl that will take a fitted lid (like the glass Pyrex bowls with the plastic lids), pour some gel in there (I get mine at the LHBS, but many people use unflavored gelatin from the grocery store with good results) and shake it. Leave it in there for 10-15 minutes for the gel granules to "bloom". Then mix that with a little more water in a pot and heat it on the stove. I don't worry about temp, I just watch to see that the liquid is steaming and the granules have dissolved in the solution. I have accidentally brought it to a boil but it didn't "gel" up. Take it off the heat, put a lid on it and let it cool. Pour that into the sanitized secondary and then rack your beer on top. I have heard a couple different reasons why it works. The first was that each of the gel granules resembles a tiny honeycomb and as it drops through the beer, the honeycomb traps solid material and drags it down to the bottom of the vessel. I have also heard that after everything mixes, the gel will congregate at the top of the liquid and form a layer... then the layer begins to drop, acting like a net dragging everything down with it. Anyone who has used it has marveled at how clear the beer is just a few days after using it. Obviously, if your beer was already pretty clear coming out of primary... the secondary (with gel solution) will be that much clearer. Cheers.

[stangbat]

I use one pack of Knox gelatin to 8 oz of water for 5g of beer. I heat the water to boiling in the microwave, then let it cool down between 150-160 degrees. Then add the gelatin and stir until dissolved. Then add to the beer before it gets below 120 degrees. This is the basic procedure Greg Noonan recommends in "New Brewing Lager Beer" and I've found it to work good.