90 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

it also stops fermentation so you don't use up the yeast you just created.

[brewman]

Well I smacked my pack this morning and will be starting my starter after work (about 1 hour from now). I wont have time to get it in the fridge for a day or two so will it be OK to just pour everything into my wort?Dan

[Murphy]

Well I smacked my pack this morning and will be starting my starter after work (about 1 hour from now). I wont have time to get it in the fridge for a day or two so will it be OK to just pour everything into my wort?Dan

unless you are making a huge starter, which it doesn't sound like you are, then you should be fine

[SchwanzBrewer]

Well I smacked my pack this morning and will be starting my starter after work (about 1 hour from now). I wont have time to get it in the fridge for a day or two so will it be OK to just pour everything into my wort?Dan

Yes. It will be fine.

[denny]

it also stops fermentation so you don't use up the yeast you just created.

It slows fermentation, but doesn't stop it. And how could you "use up the yeast"? Do not understand.....

[SchwanzBrewer]

It slows fermentation, but doesn't stop it. And how could you "use up the yeast"? Do not understand.....

I just mean rather that its better to pitch the yeast before it ferments out completely so you aren't pitching stressed yeast. Should have been more clear about that.

[MtnBrewer]

I just mean rather that its better to pitch the yeast before it ferments out completely so you aren't pitching stressed yeast. Should have been more clear about that.

It's ok for it to ferment out but you need to catch the yeast before their glycogen reserves are expended. That's the key to a fast start.

[SchwanzBrewer]

It's ok for it to ferment out but you need to catch the yeast before their glycogen reserves are expended. That's the key to a fast start.

best way to do that is to pitch just before anaerobic fermentation starts.

[MtnBrewer]

That should never happen if you're giving it plenty of air, right?

[Murphy]

That should never happen if you're giving it plenty of air, right?

correct, if it's getting air than anaerobic fermentation cannot occur

[denny]

It's ok for it to ferment out but you need to catch the yeast before their glycogen reserves are expended. That's the key to a fast start.

And that also means not making a too small starter, like the pint starter that all too many people do.I always let my starters ferment to completion and there's no problem. I get starts within 6-12 hours, which is fine by me.

[SchwanzBrewer]

And that also means not making a too small starter, like the pint starter that all too many people do.I always let my starters ferment to completion and there's no problem. I get starts within 6-12 hours, which is fine by me.

You can blame John Palmer for that. I'll check his book (I have the latest edition) and see if he has changed that from what is on the website. I used to make pint starters, now I make quarts for 5 gallons (1/2 gal split for 10 gal batches). I can't really tell if the beer has been better, it's all been pretty damn good and some great ones IMO since I built the ferm chamber.

[Mya]

You can blame John Palmer for that. I'll check his book (I have the latest edition) and see if he has changed that from what is on the website. I used to make pint starters, now I make quarts for 5 gallons (1/2 gal split for 10 gal batches). I can't really tell if the beer has been better, it's all been pretty damn good and some great ones IMO since I built the ferm chamber.

and WYeasts website

[beach]

A pint isn't even worth the time is it (sorry Ken)? I've never had a starter calculator tell me a pint was sufficient, even for the smallest beers. I must have read right over that one. Glad I did.Beach

[MtnBrewer]

A pint isn't even worth the time is it (sorry Ken)? I've never had a starter calculator tell me a pint was sufficient, even for the smallest beers. I must have read right over that one. Glad I did.

Even a quart is too small in my opinion. The smallest starter I ever make is a quart/liter and a half.

[djinkc]

Even a quart is too small in my opinion. The smallest starter I ever make is a quart/liter and a half.

stirplate? I do 2, 2.5L starters all the time and mine start quick and finish low. (10 gallons) around 1.050 give or take 6 points

[MtnBrewer]

stirplate? I do 2, 2.5L starters all the time and mine start quick and finish low. (10 gallons) around 1.050 give or take 6 points

Yes, a stirplate. 2 liter and above are fine. You don't get much propagation from smaller than 1.5L.

[djinkc]

Yes, a stirplate. 2 liter and above are fine. You don't get much propagation from smaller than 1.5L.

Yeah, I haven't worked through the stuff Klickque posted yet. Great guy and really knows ranching. Some of what he posted didn't make sense intuitively but I have no doubt he's right. Pretty cool brewer, he sent me 3 vials of glycerine frozen yeast a long time ago. Hadn't even met him yet at the time. Aren't homebrewers great?It's odd that the volumes work the way they do.

[djinkc]

Hey Chris (Klick) buy some safety glasses will you!

[klickcue]

Hey Chris (Klick) buy some safety glasses will you!

I guess that you saw me in my work dress Dan! I always have my side shields on my safety glasses, hard toe boots are my common footware with hearing protection tied around my neck for use in the noisy areas (loud!)On topic.... Beach and I are both fans of yeastcalc How much DME that you want to throw at your starter wort and how much time you much to have to grow a batch of yeast is the factor involved. Plus at the cost of DME, how expensive is your starter solution?If a person were to look at the yeast growing curve the Jamil's book YEAST (whatever the name), the curve is developed around a pitch of 100 billion cells that is intermittently shaken to create one doubling of yeast. So, 100 billion cells equals 200 billion cells (1 doubling). This as I remember is a 2 liter starter. So in this style of starter, both yeast growth and fermentation is happening.So a pitch of 100 billion cells in 1 liter of wort that are just allow to grow and ferment in the wort equals 52 million new cells created.The same pitch with intermittent shaking equals 90 billion new cells. Not quite 1 doubling.The same pitch with a stir plate equals 128 billion new cells.A pattern is starting to develop. So why is this? The more O2 the yeast is given, the less fermentation occurs and the more yeast is grown.So to take it even farther, if a person were to take even farther and have 5 gallon of wort that they wanted to create beer and give it continuous aeration the alcohol would be low and the yeast growth would be high.So, depending on how much you have to grow your yeast, there is nothing wrong with 1 liter of yeast for a starter on a stir plate. It just takes more DME if your want to get to a pitching volume. Does a person gain much in time with 1 step versus a two step starter, I don't believe so. With a larger starter, the yeast per ml of wort is smaller so the growth rate is down in a given period because it is more dilute. Or said a different way, would the yeast with a small pitch in 5 gallon of wort grow to the same volume of slurry as a calculated pitch of yeast? No. The yeast growth factor has changed. Would 100 billion cell count pitch ferment out a 20 gallon beer of 1.050? No, because the yeast cell count per ml of wort is too low; no enough reproduction cycles available.An interesting tidbit, for every pound of alcohol created in a fermented beer a pound of CO2 is released.Kinda went off the deep end. Start with the correct concentration and volume of wort, depending on the form of aeration and create lots of yeast for your your beer's specific gravity. The more aeration, the more yeast and the less alcohol in the starter. Also, the better the yeast health because they can store the reserves needed for the next food source the yeast happens upon which continues their family line Beer!