69 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

Here's one option for the water:You should be able to hit all the numbers with a 5 gallon mash-in and 3 grams each of CaCl2 and CaSO4. That would get you close to your desired -44 RA. Then, if you sparged to a pre-boil volume of 7.5 gallons with your tap water, you would be around the equivalent of using ~50 ppm calcium and a balanced ~70 ppm each of Cl- and SO4--.I've only made one of these, so I can't comment on the recipe much. The hops are close to what I used, which was decent initially. It didn't take long for the hop flavor to fade, though, at which point it was a very nice Helles.I just used Pilsner Malt and 1/4# Carafoam, which was fine for me. I doubt any of the Czech breweries are using Aromatic, and I probably wouldn't add it, but it shouldn't ruin the beer. Others are going to say the same thing about the Carafoam, so make what you think sounds good. I think the important thing is to use a nice flavorful Pilsner Malt.The gravity is higher than any Bohemian Pilsner I've ever had. I'd stick with the usual 1.048.

[positiveContact]

Here's one option for the water: You should be able to hit all the numbers with a 5 gallon mash-in and 3 grams each of CaCl2 and CaSO4. That would get you close to your desired -44 RA. Then, if you sparged to a pre-boil volume of 7.5 gallons with your tap water, you would be around the equivalent of using ~50 ppm calcium and a balanced ~70 ppm each of Cl- and SO4--. I've only made one of these, so I can't comment on the recipe much. The hops are close to what I used, which was decent initially. It didn't take long for the hop flavor to fade, though, at which point it was a very nice Helles. I just used Pilsner Malt and 1/4# Carafoam, which was fine for me. I doubt any of the Czech breweries are using Aromatic, and I probably wouldn't add it, but it shouldn't ruin the beer. Others are going to say the same thing about the Carafoam, so make what you think sounds good. I think the important thing is to use a nice flavorful Pilsner Malt. The gravity is higher than any Bohemian Pilsner I've ever had. I'd stick with the usual 1.048.

yeah - I get out of hand with the gravity sometimes. good point there. I'm using best malz pilsner malt - not sure how that is on the scale of flavor but that's what I've got. the aromatic was meant to simulate a decoction which I won't be doing. the carafoam was there just to help with the body a little bit. the munich was to add a touch of maltiness and push the SRM up a touch. what was your mash like? how much more hops do you wish you had added?

[BlKtRe]

I'm fine with the SRM is but I've done this with other beers and it does work quite well. something dehusked would be even better. eta: I should probably check in designing great beers for this style - I can't recall if it's in there...

That's fine, I was just saying that the RB makes it look super pretty. Using dehusked really isn't an issue since its hardly any RB used to get the orangish color. But yea, dehusked works too. Not sure if you really need the Munich or Aromatic in this style. Surely wont hurt it. I suppose you are going for a decoction spin off of some sort by adding it?

[positiveContact]

That's fine, I was just saying that the RB makes it look super pretty. Using dehusked really isn't an issue since its hardly any RB used to get the orangish color. But yea, dehusked works too. Not sure if you really need the Munich or Aromatic in this style. Surely wont hurt it. I suppose you are going for a decoction spin off of some sort by adding it?

that's pretty much it, yeah.

[Brauer]

Not sure if you really need the Munich or Aromatic in this style. Surely wont hurt it. I suppose you are going for a decoction spin off of some sort by adding it?

yeah - I get out of hand with the gravity sometimes. good point there. I'm using best malz pilsner malt - not sure how that is on the scale of flavor but that's what I've got. the aromatic was meant to simulate a decoction which I won't be doing. the carafoam was there just to help with the body a little bit. the munich was to add a touch of maltiness and push the SRM up a touch. what was your mash like? how much more hops do you wish you had added?

Yeah, I figured. I don't want to get into the whole decoction debate, but I don't think Aromatic makes a beer taste decocted (whatever that is) any more than adding artificial cherry flavor makes Sam Adams Cherry Wheat taste like it has cherries in it. What I do think is that a good Pilsner Malt can add most of those flavors you are looking for, all by itself. Best Malz is a very good Pilsner Malt. I also like what Carafoam adds, which could probably be added by the right mash schedule, but I don't know what that is. I mashed at 150°F for 30 minutes followed by 30 minutes at 158°F. I think that was right where I would want it to be for a Czech Pils. I under-bittered, at 30 IBU, which was part of the problem with my hop additions. Ignoring that, I added 1.5 oz at 20' and 1.5 oz at 2 minutes of an excellent Hallertau. I liked it as a Pilsner, when it was very fresh, but the hop flavor faded quite quickly. Cavman used 2 oz of Saphir in his, along with the same yeast and Pilsner Malt, and it had a better hop flavor, so, maybe you would be better off bumping your late additions up to 2 oz.

[positiveContact]

okay - aromatic is gone! what do you think of the munich? I'm also thinking I'll up my single infusion to 153F.so I'm still a little confused on the water. how could they make such light colored beer with such soft water without completely jacked up pH?

[positiveContact]

I also read that a thinner mash is better so I went up to 1.5qt/gallon which isn't too extreme but it's thinner than what I normally do.

[djinkc]

I thought Hallertau Mittelfruh was a must with this style. And Monrovian malt.Just stirring the pot.

[Brauer]

I thought Hallertau Mittelfruh was a must with this style. And Monrovian malt.

Just stirring the pot.

...and fine Corinthian Leather. Sorry if I'm coming across as dogmatic. I don't have a lot of experience with this particular style, so I have no right to be too authoritative, I'm just trying to answer Studs questions from the experience I have.

Saaz and the right yeast seem to go a long way toward making the beer more recognizably Czech. You're probably going to have to jump through more hoops if you are trying to make something that is more particularly like a PU or Budweiser clone.

I also read that a thinner mash is better so I went up to 1.5qt/gallon which isn't too extreme but it's thinner than what I normally do.

Should be fine. I like 2 qt/#, myself.

okay - aromatic is gone! what do you think of the munich? I'm also thinking I'll up my single infusion to 153F.

so I'm still a little confused on the water. how could they make such light colored beer with such soft water without completely jacked up pH?

I think that there is probably more than one way to hit the target. A little Munich or Aromatic probably wouldn't hurt, and I'm sure some brewers swear by them. I've done the "throw a pound of Munich" thing in a lot of beers, and it's a pretty subtle way of adding some maltiness. This is the Pilsner Malt beer, though, so I like the idea of using it to highlight what you can get from a good Pilsner Malt without muddying it up.

Your guess is as good as mine as to what single infusion would work best. I pretty much use an Alpha Amylase step mash for everything, instead of doing a mash out, and haven't played around much with warm single infusions.

I've made a number of Pilsner based beers with our soft water, and they can come out quite good. I've had better luck, particularly with beer clarity, after treating my water. As far as pH in Plzen, I've heard that they use Gypsum to bring Calcium to ~50 ppm. Historically, Palmer says they used a acid rest.

[BlKtRe]

This is the Pilsner Malt beer, though, so I like the idea of using it to highlight what you can get from a good Pilsner Malt without muddying it up.

I agree. I use BM all the time for my BoPils. I never add any other type of malt besides some dextrine (Carapils, Carafoam) for mouth feel. When Im bored, I will add the RB for the orangish. Other than that stick w/Saaz. I also prefer Gr. Magnum up front simply because you aren't wasting a bunch of low AA hops on the top side. Mash 150* single infusion or if you incline do a step but probably wont make much difference if you do. Decoction's are also debatable. Im currently drinking a double decocted Dunk and it really doesnt taste any different than my single infusions. Pitch big into 50* wort, aerate well, lager for a long time. Carb and enjoy.

[positiveContact]

I thought Hallertau Mittelfruh was a must with this style. And Monrovian malt. Just stirring the pot.

you are right about the malt although I wouldn't call it a must from what I've seen. as for hops, saaz is def the go to hop for a bo pils. almost no question there.

[positiveContact]

As far as pH in Plzen, I've heard that they use Gypsum to bring Calcium to ~50 ppm. Historically, Palmer says they used a acid rest.

in designing great beers gypsum is said to be a no-no but then again it is also not supposed to be used in o'fest beers and I use it there with great success. where did you hear they were using gypsum? any idea on chloride to sulfate ratios?

[Brauer]

in designing great beers gypsum is said to be a no-no but then again it is also not supposed to be used in o'fest beers and I use it there with great success. where did you hear they were using gypsum? any idea on chloride to sulfate ratios?

I'm pretty sure I got that from one of Jamil's shows, but don't hold me to that.

I gave you a water recipe for a balanced Cl:SO4.
Other options:

[*]Just add CaCl2 (or cut way back on the CaSO4) - you could go with 3.5-4 grams, settle for a slightly higher RA, a final Ca closer to 40 ppm and a higher Cl. That would probably get you a more malt focused beer, which would be appropriate here.
[*]Get some Acid Malt (or acid) - 1% will drop the pH by 0.1. 1/4 pound is supposed to still be below the taste threshold. THis would allow you to make the beer with really soft water, if you wanted to try that.
[*]Add Munich Malt - In distilled water, Pilsner Malt can have a pH around 5.7-5.8, while Munich Malt (and probably the Carafoam) should be closer to a pH of 5.4. Even with a couple pounds, you'll still want to add calcium or acid, but you'll need less.
[*]Use your super-soft, Plzen-like water and see what you think.
[/list]

[positiveContact]

the idea of low calcium on a beer that I want to be really clear freaks me out. I hate to add too much munich or other stuff b/c as many have said here - this beer is about pils malt so I'd hate to overpower it with munich. I guess I'll probably add some combo of gypsum and calcium chloride (probably more calcium chloride) and see how it comes out. is there a way to add calcium, lower RA but not add chloride or sulfates?

[Brauer]

is there a way to add calcium, lower RA but not add chloride or sulfates?

You can add CaOH (you should be able to find it where they sell canning supplies, as pickling lime), which would raise the pH, then bring the pH back down with Lactic or Phosphoric Acid. I think the Bru'n Water calculator might allow you to figure out how much to add.

[positiveContact]

You can add CaOH (you should be able to find it where they sell canning supplies, as pickling lime), which would raise the pH, then bring the pH back down with Lactic or Phosphoric Acid. I think the Bru'n Water calculator might allow you to figure out how much to add.

that's in interesting idea. i don't think I'll try it this time around but will consider it in the future. when you buy CaOH how do you know it's pure and doesn't have other stuff mixed in?

[Big Nake]

On these, I use CaCl and that's pretty much it for salt additions. I like to get the calcium up around 75ppm overall and I also have lactic acid nearby so if I take the pH of the mash and it's still high, I knock it down with about .5ml of lactic acid. I wouldn't bother with the acid malt unless it's all you have and you don't want to use lactic acid. A beer like this should have low bicarbonates and low sulfates. I had also heard that gypsum is not good in this style (again, sulfates) and I have also found that the Cl:SO4 ratio can be a bunch of nonsense at times. I have made a few gold beers with RO water where the ratio was 9+ and another one where it was over 20. I also use Best Malz as my go-to pilsner malt and I really like it. I'd use Durst Turbo Pils if I could find it but the Best Malz is very good. There is also a Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner which may be more authentic but I believe it's "less-modified" (if I can use that term) and has led many brewers to cloudy and grainy-tasting pilsners, me included. I would probably use the Best Malz for 75% of the grain bill and the rest either light Munich (~6L) or Vienna for the rest, Magnum and Saaz to about 30-35 IBUs (or higher if you wish... softer water can mute the hop presense) and use the Magnum at 60 and the Saaz at 15 and/or 10 and/or 5. Just use your filtered soft tap water and add about 4-5g of CaCl to the mash. If you think the beer will lack crispness, a small addition of gypsum or even calcium carbonate (like .5g to 1g) to the mash is probably acceptable. Cheers.

[Brauer]

that's in interesting idea. i don't think I'll try it this time around but will consider it in the future. when you buy CaOH how do you know it's pure and doesn't have other stuff mixed in?

It's not something I'd bother with, with our soft water, but it is used by some brewers with high Cl- or SO4-- who still want to add Ca++. Some brands will say "no additives or preservatives" on the label.

[positiveContact]

It's not something I'd bother with, with our soft water, but it is used by some brewers with high Cl- or SO4-- who still want to add Ca++. Some brands will say "no additives or preservatives" on the label.

my water is soft but not as soft as pilsen. I have too many sulfates and chlorides right off the bat.

[Big Nake]

my water is soft but not as soft as pilsen. I have too many sulfates and chlorides right off the bat.

The chlorides are okay here but not the sulfates. Sulfates will add a spikier, crisper profile and the chlorides should lend a rounder, smoother profile. What is the temp of your basement now? Has it been cold up there? Studs... time to look on CL for the 4.4cf fridge that someone is getting rid of. Lager primary fridge!