71 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

That's where we differ. I don't think there is such a thing as a correct water profile any more than I think there is a correct hop schedule or grain bill.

So when you make a certain style of beer, you don't look to see that your water has more or less of any water ion? You might make an addition of gypsum to something like an English Bitter because it will give the beer a little "spiky" crispness but otherwise you don't look to adjust your water based on style?

[MtnBrewer]

So when you make a certain style of beer, you don't look to see that your water has more or less of any water ion? You might make an addition of gypsum to something like an English Bitter because it will give the beer a little "spiky" crispness but otherwise you don't look to adjust your water based on style?

I adjust it based on the color of the beer. Very pale beers require a small addition of something. What that something is depends on whether I want a sharp hoppiness or not. Gypsum if so; CaCl₂ if not. If the beer is amber or darker, no additions are necessary.

[Humperdink]

That's where we differ. I don't think there is such a thing as a correct water profile any more than I think there is a correct hop schedule or grain bill.

Agreed. There's traditional, but that doesn't make it "correct". I make english beers with my soft water that I enjoy a lot. To me that's good.

So when you make a certain style of beer, you don't look to see that your water has more or less of any water ion? You might make an addition of gypsum to something like an English Bitter because it will give the beer a little "spiky" crispness but otherwise you don't look to adjust your water based on style?

I will often tailor my water to the region it was traditionally brewed in (especially if that water is soft like my own). I would say in a english bitter that yes, you'd want more gypsum that calcium chloride, but you could make it the other way and still call it an english bitter. It's more of a traditional water profile but it wouldn't be a deal breaker IMHO as long as the beer was well brewed. Hope that clarifies at lest my position on it since you and I have talked a fair amount on water.

[Big Nake]

Agreed. There's traditional, but that doesn't make it "correct". I make english beers with my soft water that I enjoy a lot. To me that's good. I will often tailor my water to the region it was traditionally brewed in (especially if that water is soft like my own). I would say in a english bitter that yes, you'd want more gypsum that calcium chloride, but you could make it the other way and still call it an english bitter. It's more of a traditional water profile but it wouldn't be a deal breaker IMHO as long as the beer was well brewed. Hope that clarifies at lest my position on it since you and I have talked a fair amount on water.

Ugh, I wish my water was soft. Maybe my wife will consider moving. The more I think about it, the more I feel like a 50% to 75% dilution (of my water) could be good for ALL styles. It occurs to me that bicarbonate really gets in the way of a good-tasting beer all the way around. All of my other water numbers are in check except my bicarbonate.

[MtnBrewer]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like a 50% to 75% dilution (of my water) could be good for ALL styles. It occurs to me that bicarbonate really gets in the way of a good-tasting beer all the way around. All of my other water numbers are in check except my bicarbonate.

I tend to agree with that. If you have low bicarb you can get away with almost anything. High bicarb and you have to scramble.

[BlKtRe]

Here is my waterCalcium --- 27.0Chloride --- 12 Magnesium --- 8.80 Sodium --- 16.0 Sulfate --- 24 Total alkalinity CaCO3 --- 94.6 Total Hardness CaCO3 --- 100 PH S.U. --- 9.0 I get away with carbon filter and PH 5.2 to adjust the mash. Darker grains get no 5.2. I've entered numerous comps and have had tons of people sample my beer and never had anyone give me feedback about adjusting my water. I like what I brew so other than experimentation, I dont see a reason to change up my water. But any input is welcome.

[Big Nake]

Here is my waterCalcium --- 27.0Chloride --- 12 Magnesium --- 8.80 Sodium --- 16.0 Sulfate --- 24 Total alkalinity CaCO3 --- 94.6 Total Hardness CaCO3 --- 100 PH S.U. --- 9.0 I get away with carbon filter and PH 5.2 to adjust the mash. Darker grains get no 5.2. I've entered numerous comps and have had tons of people sample my beer and never had anyone give me feedback about adjusting my water. I like what I brew so other than experimentation, I dont see a reason to change up my water. But any input is welcome.

Our water is similar, generally except that your alkalinity/bicarb is a little lower than mine. Do you make your Altbier with this water? Do you add anything besides the 5.2 stabilizer?

[drewseslu]

I've got a sticke on deck:PilsMunich 10LMunich 30LSpecial BCaraFa II DehuskedMagnum & Mt. HoodIf you go US with the hops, I really like Mt. Hood, a bit of sterling has worked well for me in the past, I'm yet to try Ultra, Santiam or Mt. Ranier, however.

[djinkc]

I've got a sticke on deck:PilsMunich 10LMunich 30LSpecial BCaraFa II DehuskedMagnum & Mt. HoodIf you go US with the hops, I really like Mt. Hood, a bit of sterling has worked well for me in the past, I'm yet to try Ultra, Santiam or Mt. Ranier, however.

Munich 30 sounds good. How does that differ from Crystal CaraMunich?

Edited by djinkc, 07 September 2011 - 05:00 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

Munich 30 sounds good. How does that differ from Crystal CaraMunich?

I think somebody's noodling.

[Brauer]

Sticke is interesting but it is very rare, I have never had it.

We get the Uerige Sticke around here most all the time, and often the Dopple Sticke. They are interesting, but I think the regular Uerige Alt is really the star of the line-up. At $5/12 oz, it costs about $50/gallon, making it a good style to (attempt to) master for a homebrewer.

If you go US with the hops, I really like Mt. Hood, a bit of sterling has worked well for me in the past, I'm yet to try Ultra, Santiam or Mt. Ranier, however.

I've used Mt. Hood, Sterling, and Liberty and liked all three in an Alt. I think the Sterling worked better in a mix with other hops than it would have alone, just because I think the aroma might be a little too flowery for an Alt by itself.

[djinkc]

I think somebody's noodling.

I am a bit, but for a reason. IIRC (?) Denny says no Crystal in an Alt. And I think we all can agree that it should be dry. So where do you cross the line? Cara anything can be made a lot of different ways. Am Crystal is going to leave some lingering sweetness IMO, unless you really manipulate things, and just doesn't belong in this style. Drew and I hashed this over a bit about 11 days ago. Our take was Cara = Crystal, to some extent. And then not..............So, how does CaraMunich 40 or 60 fit in the grainbill since it is kind of a Crystal malt? And then you have me that swears Melanoidin, although malted differently, is still a bit carmelized, fits it too. Just trying to stir up some conversation about one of my favorite, and an often overlooked, style.

[Big Nake]

The other thing was that Denny mentioned that most good Munich from Germany is either light (6L) or dark (about 10L) and that's it. I did a little homework on this and found that there are some Canadian and US maltsters that claim to make Munich 20L (and possibly higher) and that they are not Munich at all, that they resemble crystal malt and absolutely should not be used in high percentages.

[MtnBrewer]

I am a bit, but for a reason. IIRC (?) Denny says no Crystal in an Alt. And I think we all can agree that it should be dry. So where do you cross the line? Cara anything can be made a lot of different ways. Am Crystal is going to leave some lingering sweetness IMO, unless you really manipulate things, and just doesn't belong in this style. Drew and I hashed this over a bit about 11 days ago. Our take was Cara = Crystal, to some extent. And then not..............So, how does CaraMunich 40 or 60 fit in the grainbill since it is kind of a Crystal malt? And then you have me that swears Melanoidin, although malted differently, is still a bit carmelized, fits it too. Just trying to stir up some conversation about one of my favorite, and an often overlooked, style.

One of my favorites too and I have pretty definite ideas about it. I agree with Denny but I'd say that you should limit crystal rather than eliminate it entirely. Particularly if it is a ZU style of alt since the bitterness can counteract the sweetness and vice versa. But if it gets a little sweet then it starts to cross the line into the N. Ger. style. I think my recipe only has 5 or 6 ounces of CM III in it. The bottom line is that alts should be very dry and malty. When the use of crystal begins to interfere with that, then you've gone too far.And no, melanoidin is not caramelized.

[positiveContact]

One of my favorites too and I have pretty definite ideas about it. I agree with Denny but I'd say that you should limit crystal rather than eliminate it entirely. Particularly if it is a ZU style of alt since the bitterness can counteract the sweetness and vice versa. But if it gets a little sweet then it starts to cross the line into the N. Ger. style. I think my recipe only has 5 or 6 ounces of CM III in it. The bottom line is that alts should be very dry and malty. When the use of crystal begins to interfere with that, then you've gone too far.And no, melanoidin is not caramelized.

How does this sound? (5 gal batch)6lbs Pilsen3.25lbs Munich (7L)0.375lbs Caramunich (not sure which one I'll use yet - currently a 47L caramunich in my calcs)0.25lbs Aromatic0.125lbs Debittered Black0.25lbs CarapilsSingle infusion mash at 148F.1oz Hallertau @ FWH0.8oz Magnum (German) @ 60 mins1oz Hallertau @ 30 mins (normally I don't do 30 mins additions but someone must have suggested it to me when I came up with this)Ferment on wyeast 1007OG: 1.054SRM: 12IBU: 46

Edited by mashleyJwilliams, 08 September 2011 - 02:59 AM.

[Brauer]

I am a bit, but for a reason. IIRC (?) Denny says no Crystal in an Alt.

The ZU recipe he cited uses about 0.15-0.25# (once you've scaled it to your system). That's the range that has worked for me.

[positiveContact]

The ZU recipe he cited uses about 0.15-0.25# (once you've scaled it to your system). That's the range that has worked for me.

how dark of a crystal do you typically use? I'd consider scaling back to 1/4lb on the crystal if it's dark enough to help get up to the color I'd like. I'm wary of adding more debittered black than I already am b/c I want to avoid roastiness.

[BlKtRe]

Our water is similar, generally except that your alkalinity/bicarb is a little lower than mine. Do you make your Altbier with this water? Do you add anything besides the 5.2 stabilizer?

That's the water I use for everything. I just carbon filter and 5.2. No 5.2 using dark grains. That's it. Also, I don't have any way of knowing other than entering some comps. Using the recipe I posted and adjusting the CM and/or Dark Wheat for NB and the Dusse, I have won Gold and Silver at KCBM in different years. These beers have always scored in the high. 30's, low 40's. As already stated, you just need to be careful about the maltiness between the styles. I personally feel that CM has a different flavor than the crystal counterparts that people find to be caramel /malt and not sweetness like crystal. There is a difference between malt and sweetness.

[Big Nake]

That's the water I use for everything. I just carbon filter and 5.2. No 5.2 using dark grains. That's it. Also, I don't have any way of knowing other than entering some comps. Using the recipe I posted and adjusting the CM and/or Dark Wheat for NB and the Dusse, I have won Gold and Silver at KCBM in different years. These beers have always scored in the high. 30's, low 40's. As already stated, you just need to be careful about the maltiness between the styles. I personally feel that CM has a different flavor than the crystal counterparts that people find to be caramel /malt and not sweetness like crystal. There is a difference between malt and sweetness.

I will agree with you that there is a difference between maltiness and sweetness. I have learned that over the years with the help of better brewers than myself.Okay so what happens if you make anything that's light in color? Maybe a blonde, cream ale, Am. Wheat, Helles, Kolsch or pilsner? Do you do anything different with the water if you make those styles?

[BlKtRe]

I will agree with you that there is a difference between maltiness and sweetness. I have learned that over the years with the help of better brewers than myself.Okay so what happens if you make anything that's light in color? Maybe a blonde, cream ale, Am. Wheat, Helles, Kolsch or pilsner? Do you do anything different with the water if you make those styles?

Ken,I brew light colored beers to using the same water doing the same thing and have done well with those. I think my water is a decent all around profile so I just worry about mash PH. I decided it wasn't worth my time playing the water game. If I had crap water then id feel different.