72 replies to this topic

[Deerslyr]

Force. The nice thing about kegging is no yeast sediment.

And yet you STILL have to clean and santize the keg when you are done...

[chuck_d]

Sugar carbonation is not inconsistent and this is the first time I've heard anyone complain of that.

Really? I complain about it when I get a chance to. Sure, the amount of carbonation from sugar isn't inconsistent, but what is inconsistent is how much CO2 is already dissolved in your beer and how to account for it. If you're doing the exact same process all the time then you have more control over it and can probably work to get the carbonation as you like it. I however do not use the exact same fermentation profile on my beers and don't have the tools to measure how much CO2 is already dissolved into the beer so I find that it is much easier for me to dial-in my carbonation levels with forced carbonation over primed carbonation.I don't buy the whole priming means you have a keg lying around that's already carbonated. Same thing with forced carbonation. It doesn't matter how it got there, if you have the extra stock then you can have already carbonated kegs available. I know I have carbonated kegs sitting around that aren't on tap and not one of them was primed. (Well, my mini-keg that holds 5 L and uses a phil tap was primed, but that's a vessel that is designed for priming rather than forced carbonation; I call those my "casks").

[CaptRon]

I guess I should have included a both option. But the purpose behind this poll was for me to see how lopsided it was if at all towards force carbing. The reason is because I made 10 gallons of a hopped up pale ale that while very good from my forced keg, the 5 gallons that I bottled seems to have a "cleaner" flavor to them - best way I can describe it. So far i've kegged 3 beers, and all 3 of them while are very tasty just seem to have this slight off flavor. I guess it could be the gassy flavor that i've read about. It isn't bad by any means, but just slightly there.

[Deerslyr]

Really? I complain about it when I get a chance to. Sure, the amount of carbonation from sugar isn't inconsistent, but what is inconsistent is how much CO2 is already dissolved in your beer and how to account for it. If you're doing the exact same process all the time then you have more control over it and can probably work to get the carbonation as you like it. I however do not use the exact same fermentation profile on my beers and don't have the tools to measure how much CO2 is already dissolved into the beer so I find that it is much easier for me to dial-in my carbonation levels with forced carbonation over primed carbonation.I don't buy the whole priming means you have a keg lying around that's already carbonated. Same thing with forced carbonation. It doesn't matter how it got there, if you have the extra stock then you can have already carbonated kegs available. I know I have carbonated kegs sitting around that aren't on tap and not one of them was primed. (Well, my mini-keg that holds 5 L and uses a phil tap was primed, but that's a vessel that is designed for priming rather than forced carbonation; I call those my "casks").

Then my experience with sugar priming differs greatly from yours because I've not had a problem (knock on wood) acheiving a good carbonation level with sugar priming in the keg. I kegged 10 gallons of an IPA and sugar primed both of them... and they both turned out just as good as any that I have force carbed. And the cleanup was exactly the same.Our reliance on the air gas industry is amazing when you consider our "forefathers" didn't have it available to them. I can just hear Ben Franklin now... "you know George, this ale is pretty good, but if you just had a 5 pound tank of C02 it would be that much better..." In the end he still uttered that famous phrase that "beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy".

[3rd party JKor]

How do you keg primers dispense? I assume you're still using CO2 to dispense. Why not just plug the keg into the tank? More control over carbonation, probably faster too, even if you just let it sit.Deerslyr, I'm sure you'll be terribly disappointed, but I just read an article about misattributed/mangled historic quotes the other day. Apparently, Ben Franklin never said that.

Edited by JKoravos, 16 June 2009 - 09:32 AM.

[CaptRon]

Deerslyr, I'm sure you'll be terribly disappointed, but I just read an article about misattributed/mangled historic quotes the other day. Apparently, Ben Franklin never said that.

You can't say he NEVER said that. He might have said that in a drunken stooper one night with his boys (the other fore-daddy's). :sarcasm:I'm going to keep thinking that he said that, because it is just way better to tell people that he did. haha

[Deerslyr]

How do you keg primers dispense? I assume you're still using CO2 to dispense. Why not just plug the keg into the tank? More control over carbonation, probably faster too, even if you just let it sit.Deerslyr, I'm sure you'll be terribly disappointed, but I just read an article about misattributed/mangled historic quotes the other day. Apparently, Ben Franklin never said that.

OMG... please tell me where you found the article... it's a must read if that is the case!

[MtnBrewer]

How do you keg primers dispense? I assume you're still using CO2 to dispense.

Yes.

Why not just plug the keg into the tank? More control over carbonation, probably faster too, even if you just let it sit.

If I didn't have a second CO2 tank, I might prime more often than I do. My kegerator is only a two-holer so I don't want to tie up one tap while it's carbing. So I'd probably prime the keg on deck while I'm serving from the two current ones. I don't know that you have more control over carbonation. You have the same control either way: specifically how many volumes of CO2 to use.

[Deerslyr]

Deerslyr, I'm sure you'll be terribly disappointed, but I just read an article about misattributed/mangled historic quotes the other day. Apparently, Ben Franklin never said that.

Found this article on the matter and if correct it is very mangled... although the folks over on the wine side would be very happy.

[ncbeerbrewer]

Deer. I am not sure what we are trying to argue here. My only point was that if I am kegging I wanna follow the carbonate under gas method. I do as others said low and slow 7 days then time to drink. I didn't like bottling beers as it took a month before you could drink and I saw and have read people say one bottle is carbed, one was flatter and so on. If you wanna prime in a keg go ahead, its your system. I just feel for myself I like the ease of kegging and the shorter turn around it provides. I don't fill bottles but every so often from a keg. My taps flow 99.9% of all beer I make. When I carbonate my friends 5 gallons of a 10 gallon split he enjoys that too, cuts down on his wait time as well.

[stellarbrew]

Somtimes I like to grab a keg and my 5 lb bottle of CO2, put them in the car, and take them over to friend's house for a cookout, or poker night, or whatever. In that case, I find that if there is a great deal of yeast sediment in the keg, it will get swirled around during transport and will take a long time to settle back out once I get to my destination. That is my reason for following two procedures in my kegging:1. I secondary all my beers in a carboy and cold crash at near freezing for at least a couple of weeks. Then, when I siphon from the carboy to the keg, the vast majority of the yeast has been settled out, and I am transfering very little yeast over to the keg.2. I force carb the kegged beer, rather than sugar carbing it. That way, I am not building up any more yeast settlement in the keg.When I follow these procedures, I find that the amount of yeast sediment in the bottom of a finished keg is almost nothing. This explains why I don't have to worry about getting cloudy, yeasty beer when I tarnsport a keg over to my friend's house, as I did back when I skipped secondary fermentation, or carbed with sugar.

[3rd party JKor]

1. I secondary all my beers in a carboy and cold crash at near freezing for at least a couple of weeks. Then, when I siphon from the carboy to the keg, the vast majority of the yeast has been settled out, and I am transfering very little yeast over to the keg.2. I force carb the kegged beer, rather than sugar carbing it. That way, I am not building up any more yeast settlement in the keg.

+1

[harryfrog]

I think it's time for a 10 gallon brew, done both ways. I'd be interested to see just how much sediment forms in the bottom of a sugar carbed keg versus a force-carbed keg.

[Deerslyr]

Deer. I am not sure what we are trying to argue here. My only point was that if I am kegging I wanna follow the carbonate under gas method. I do as others said low and slow 7 days then time to drink. I didn't like bottling beers as it took a month before you could drink and I saw and have read people say one bottle is carbed, one was flatter and so on. If you wanna prime in a keg go ahead, its your system. I just feel for myself I like the ease of kegging and the shorter turn around it provides. I don't fill bottles but every so often from a keg. My taps flow 99.9% of all beer I make. When I carbonate my friends 5 gallons of a 10 gallon split he enjoys that too, cuts down on his wait time as well.

My point was that if done with the proper amount of priming sugar, you get decent carbonation in the keg. For me, it all depends on how much time I have to carbonate. If I have space in the fridge, it gets hooked up to the gas. If both the taps are "occupied" I sugar prime and it is RTG when one of the two kegs in the fridge kicks. I disagree with the assertion that "you might as well bottle" because sugar priming a keg is infinitely easier than 50 bottles. Is it as easy as force carbing??? Maybe, maybe not. But the post I was responding to had to do with bottling. And as I've said before, I have not had issues with the beer not carbonating properly when being sugar primed. And as for sediment... I STILL get sediment when I do force carb... and even if I didn't, I'd still have to clean the keg in the exact same way. I don't transport my kegs, so I don't really have that issue. When I head out for poker night (it's a byo drink rule) I fill a 2 liter soda bottle and use a carb cap and fill from the tap.I'm really not meaning to be a prick here. Sorry if I'm coming off like one. I just don't believe one method is inherently better than the other... and that's without getting into the "i can taste the gas" line of thinking.

[Deerslyr]

I think it's time for a 10 gallon brew, done both ways. I'd be interested to see just how much sediment forms in the bottom of a sugar carbed keg versus a force-carbed keg.

And in the end would you clean them any differently?

[harryfrog]

I guess I should have included a both option. But the purpose behind this poll was for me to see how lopsided it was if at all towards force carbing. The reason is because I made 10 gallons of a hopped up pale ale that while very good from my forced keg, the 5 gallons that I bottled seems to have a "cleaner" flavor to them - best way I can describe it. So far i've kegged 3 beers, and all 3 of them while are very tasty just seem to have this slight off flavor. I guess it could be the gassy flavor that i've read about. It isn't bad by any means, but just slightly there.

Are they all the same age and you've noticed the difference in flavors, or are you rembering the younger, force carbed beer versus the older, bottled beer?

[harryfrog]

And in the end would you clean them any differently?

nope. put them upside down on the pump with some hot pbw and let them sit, self cleaning for 15 minutes.i've been toying with naturally carbing a batch as the kegerator is filled to capacity and it's a real bitch to get the CO2 tank in and out of there to force carb with, and I'm too cheap to go buy another tank / regulator setup. Not to mention with the hot ass weather coming up, I'm thinking all beer will have to age in my fermentation fridge, which is set to ale temps and has room for a keg or two. I am jealous (sometimes) of the basement people with a constant 65 degree cellar.

[stellarbrew]

I agree that it would not be any harder to clean a keg which contained a sugar carbed beer, than one which contained force carbed beer. Even if it has more yeast sediment, that stuff washes out pretty quickly. I do know from my own experience that sugar carbing a kegged beer does produce significantly more yeast sediment than a force carbed keg of beer. As for a taste difference between sugar carbed vs. force carbed beer, I can't give a definite answer on that. I haven't noticed any taste differences, but I have never done a side-by-side comparison with a split batch, one half force carbed in the keg, and the other half sugar carbed in the keg. It would be interesting to know if someone has done a side by side comparison, whether they have found a difference.

[CaptRon]

Are they all the same age and you've noticed the difference in flavors, or are you rembering the younger, force carbed beer versus the older, bottled beer?

Nope, I still have bottles and a little left in the keg right now. I guess in theory there shouldn't be any flavor contribution from the CO2 saturation coming from a tank vs. naturally from the slight fermentation from the yeast right? CO2 is an odorless, tasteless gas right?

[chuck_d]

Then my experience with sugar priming differs greatly from yours because I've not had a problem (knock on wood) acheiving a good carbonation level with sugar priming in the keg. I kegged 10 gallons of an IPA and sugar primed both of them... and they both turned out just as good as any that I have force carbed. And the cleanup was exactly the same.Our reliance on the air gas industry is amazing when you consider our "forefathers" didn't have it available to them. I can just hear Ben Franklin now... "you know George, this ale is pretty good, but if you just had a 5 pound tank of C02 it would be that much better..." In the end he still uttered that famous phrase that "beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy".

Our forefathers also lost all their teeth by the time they were 40, give or take. I don't necessarily think what worked for them works for us, considering our purposes were different. Our forefathers didn't even understand it was yeast that fermented wort to make beer, so to use them as an example kind of misses the point. The point is, sure I can achieve "good" carbonation by priming. I can achieve more "precise" carbonation by using forced carbonation though. I'm not saying priming beer won't give you well carbonated beer, I'm just saying I find it far easier to dial-in my carbonation with forced carbonation instead of priming. When you don't know yeast is exists, you might well think it was God in the fermenter doing the work. Although it doesn't really matter, that quote has been attributed to several people, and it's probably likely that Ben Franklin never actually said it, it certainly isn't found in any of his writing.

My point was that if done with the proper amount of priming sugar, you get decent carbonation in the keg. If both the taps are "occupied" I sugar prime and it is RTG when one of the two kegs in the fridge kicks. I disagree with the assertion that "you might as well bottle" because sugar priming a keg is infinitely easier than 50 bottles. Is it as easy as force carbing??? Maybe, maybe not. But the post I was responding to had to do with bottling.

My goal isn't "decent" it's to be more precise. I am with you though on the "might as well bottle" bs. Much easier to clean & sanitize 1 bottle versus 60. Also, I force carbonate, and if all my taps are occupied my kegs are still RTG when one kicks, this has nothing to do with primed versus forced carbonation.

Edited by chuck_d, 16 June 2009 - 12:38 PM.