75 replies to this topic

[Sidney Porter]

Yeah, that may have been too harsh. I was just dumbfounded how he was finding such distinct flavors in the beer that aren't there. I'll have to dig out that score sheet at home to see his ranking, but I think it said novice.

That could be part of the problem. A Novice is someone who is not in the BJCP, not saying that they can't be a good judge, or that being in the BJCP makes you a good judge. But I am willing to bet that most novice judges do not have much experience with the guidelines or how to evaulate. I personally would let it go, but this is more of a comp organizer / judge director thing, than a bjcp or even that individual judge issue. The judge probably doesn't know if he/she is qualifed or not.

[DaBearSox]

Just last weekend I tasted a pretty nice Old Ale that to my perception was one of the many attempts to fake UK malt by adding some Munich to Am 2-row. It had a definite "Spaten" flavor to it. I didn't tell him to use less Munich, but I did tell him that the malt profile bordered on Bavarian dark beers, and that IF Munich was being used, consider cutting it back a bit, and maybe subbing with a larger portion of higher-kilned UK pale, like MO.If I were to get that score sheet, and I hadn't used any Munich, I think I could still use the info. What's the difference? I didn't tell him what he did; I told him what I taste. There is no denying what I taste. My pallet my be poorly trained or not, but I taste Munich malt here. Do something about that and I will score this beer higher next time.

I wonder if that was mine? Guess I will find out when I get my scoresheets in the mail...but when I think about it...i think I did use MOI entered 3 beers in the liquid poets last week...all 3 not perfectly to style but all in all it was my first comp and I just wanted feedback...When i brewed them i wasn't brewing them for a competition and I just entered them under the styles that I thought they came closest too when reading the guidlines.

[djinkc]

Yeah, that may have been too harsh. I was just dumbfounded how he was finding such distinct flavors in the beer that aren't there. I'll have to dig out that score sheet at home to see his ranking, but I think it said novice.

Well, there's a distinct possibility it wasn't your beer. I've had that happen

[Yeasty Boy]

There were two Johns from here: John Garbett and John Landreman. John Garbett is the instructor for the BJCP class.

For the record, John Garbett's the one you should kick in the nuts. He's a great guy. I'm sure you'll learn a lot from him. Let all those guys know how much we really appreciated seeing them up here. I hope many of you can come again next year.

[Yeasty Boy]

Oh, and about ranking, I just got a score sheet back from a Master judge, and it was pretty sad. A bunch of descriptors in the aroma/flavor/etc fields, and then under overall comments he basically just recapped how he considered the beer to be "lifeless." Not one comment about how to improve. (In fact, two other judges of the same beer mentioned no carbonation - not sure what happened there, since it was gunned from a keg, but it would answer a few things.)So yeah, I wouldn't recommend letting scoresheets tell you too much about your beer, and certainly not about your brewing overall, so keep that in mind if you do answer back. It's just one bottle, one judge, one day, etc. Priceless is having educated friends who are honest enough to sit down with a pint and tell you what they think. I don't have a problem with friends being too nice, since I'm always hypercritical of their beers.I guess it's part of relationship building, but hopefully most of my brew friends understand that I'm of two minds about most any beer: do you like it, and how does it "compete." I'm the first to look at my beers that way as well. More than a few times people have said I'm too hard on myself after I describe a beer we're trying. I give them this puzzled look and say, "no, I really like this beer, just what I wanted, has nothing to do with that, etc." and then they're really confused.[Not to say I really like all of my beers, just that many of the ones I really like I can still tear apart in critical analysis as a style. And that's not just acedemic. A good representation of a style will exhibit a certain time-proven balance, a good thing.]

[MtnBrewer]

Judging my first event this Saturday. Gnarley Barley in Loveland. Don't know what categories yet. Looking forward to it but I'm a little apprehensive too.

[3rd party JKor]

Cool, MB. Good luck. I can't wait to hear what you report back!

[ncbeerbrewer]

Judging my first event this Saturday. Gnarley Barley in Loveland. Don't know what categories yet. Looking forward to it but I'm a little apprehensive too.

Good Luck Mtn. I am sure you will do fine. Enjoy it as well.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I took the BJCP exam in June. I wrote for three strait hours and ended up with 15 pages plus 5 scoresheets and the multiple choice/fill in the blanks. It was brutal and awesome at the same time. It really forces you to learn many different aspects of brewing.

[Jimvy]

Actually the essay is now only 55%. There is a multiple choice and true/false section now that is worth 15%. But your point remains: you will only do as well on the test as a whole as you do on your essay questions.The instructor also said that quantity counts. He said that the graders expect to see a full page for each essay. If you only write a half page, they'll be predisposed to not think much of your answer regardless of how correct it really is. Verbosity matters.

That's not exactly true. The First section of the exam with fill in and T/F is only worth 10 pts out of 100 for the essay portion. When you factor the 70% weighting of the essay, it's only 7%, not 15%. Of course, the scoresheet question could be viewed as a non-essay too, which would make your numbers about right. On the 2nd point, I don't know that it's truly quantity that matters, but rather, depth of knowledge....and I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate depth of knowledge in 1/2 page. I'd caution against just writing to fill space.

[MtnBrewer]

That's not exactly true. The First section of the exam with fill in and T/F is only worth 10 pts out of 100 for the essay portion. When you factor the 70% weighting of the essay, it's only 7%, not 15%. Of course, the scoresheet question could be viewed as a non-essay too, which would make your numbers about right.

Thanks. All I know is what I was told, that the t/f section would be 15%.

On the 2nd point, I don't know that it's truly quantity that matters, but rather, depth of knowledge....and I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate depth of knowledge in 1/2 page. I'd caution against just writing to fill space.

Certainly. I guess I assumed that what I will write will be meaningful and not just a discussion of the Idaho congressional race.

[Thirsty]

Judging my first event this Saturday. Gnarley Barley in Loveland. Don't know what categories yet. Looking forward to it but I'm a little apprehensive too.

If they ask you if there are any categories you would rather judge, or any you do not, take advantage of this. Last comp I got asked I said- dosnt matter I'm flexible- I got stuck with a flight of smoked / wood aged and spice/herb/veg. after the first couple rauchbiers my palate was shot. Beef jerky the rest of the day. The senior judge I was with thought we organized the stick in the best order, but didnt work out that way.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

When you volunteer, tell the director you are studing for the exam. A good director will pair you with an experienced judge and in a relevant catagory (not mead or specialty beers which are not on the exam)

[MtnBrewer]

When you volunteer, tell the director you are studing for the exam. A good director will pair you with an experienced judge and in a relevant catagory (not mead or specialty beers which are not on the exam)

She knows that.

[Jimvy]

Thanks. All I know is what I was told, that the t/f section would be 15%.

There are 15 T/F questions on the exam....but they are only worth 1/3 pt each for a total of 5pts.

[Sidney Porter]

essay 100 pts available weighted 70%T/F - 5 pts (for all 15)purpose of bjcp and levels - 5 ptsremaing 9 essays (including classic example scoreshet) 10 pts eachTastings 100 pts weighted 30%4 beers20pts - Standard deviation from the average of the proctors scores. The avg the proctors scores and then add up how much you were off in total. If you are within 0-4 you get 20pts, 5-8 = 19, all the way down the line if you are off by 40 or more points you still get 9 out of the 20 points.The remaining 80 points are split between the following categories and 5 points each.perception - I believe this is compared to the proctors score sheets descriptive ability - How well do you describe using proper terminology feedback - My understanding is that you can still get credit if your perception was wrong but your feedback is correct for your incorrect perception. ie your write that the beer has diacytl, but it really doesn't, if you address how to handle the diacytl you will get credit in the feedbackcompleteness and communication - Did you address each area (in aroma - comment on malt, hops, ester, etc), did you fill in all the sections, is your math correct, and communication skills.

[Sidney Porter]

does anyone know how far behind they currently are in grading. I retook the tasting the begining of April and wondering if it has even been assigned yet.

[Jimvy]

does anyone know how far behind they currently are in grading. I retook the tasting the begining of April and wondering if it has even been assigned yet.

I think they say they would like to be done in 12 weeks...but at least point, I'd figure 6 months, especially in light of all the call for national judges to grade posts I've seen this year.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

They told us six months.

[MtnBrewer]

There are 15 T/F questions on the exam....but they are only worth 1/3 pt each for a total of 5pts.

essay 100 pts available weighted 70%T/F - 5 pts (for all 15)purpose of bjcp and levels - 5 ptsremaing 9 essays (including classic example scoreshet) 10 pts eachTastings 100 pts weighted 30%4 beers20pts - Standard deviation from the average of the proctors scores. The avg the proctors scores and then add up how much you were off in total. If you are within 0-4 you get 20pts, 5-8 = 19, all the way down the line if you are off by 40 or more points you still get 9 out of the 20 points.The remaining 80 points are split between the following categories and 5 points each.perception - I believe this is compared to the proctors score sheets descriptive ability - How well do you describe using proper terminology feedback - My understanding is that you can still get credit if your perception was wrong but your feedback is correct for your incorrect perception. ie your write that the beer has diacytl, but it really doesn't, if you address how to handle the diacytl you will get credit in the feedbackcompleteness and communication - Did you address each area (in aroma - comment on malt, hops, ester, etc), did you fill in all the sections, is your math correct, and communication skills.

John (our instructor) just got back from Vegas where he was re-taking the written exam to try to increase his score and move up a level. He confirmed all of the above. Thanks guys. :cheers:Also, here's an important safety tip if you want to re-take the written. If you're not doing the tasting part, they only give you 2.5 hours instead of 3. They neglected to tell him that so he hadn't finished yet when they came to pick up his exam. He pointed out that they hadn't told him that up front and so he had budgeted his time for 3 hours rather than 2.5. So they gave him an extra 10 minutes to finish up but he had to rush.