75 replies to this topic

[Sidney Porter]

the sampling is the fun part of the class. But IMHO time is better spent having the people in the class practice and share their answers on the essay questions. With focus on how much time you spend on each question. Once you have gone thru the questions you can back into the likelyhood of a given style will be on the exam.The essay are worth 70% while the tasting is only 30%. If you look at how the tasting is graded it is also hard to do really poorly on the tastings as long as you complete a scoresheet. (ie you could id a flaw that isn't there but if you explain how to deal with it will get some credit)

[MtnBrewer]

The essay are worth 70% while the tasting is only 30%. If you look at how the tasting is graded it is also hard to do really poorly on the tastings as long as you complete a scoresheet. (ie you could id a flaw that isn't there but if you explain how to deal with it will get some credit)

Actually the essay is now only 55%. There is a multiple choice and true/false section now that is worth 15%. But your point remains: you will only do as well on the test as a whole as you do on your essay questions.The instructor also said that quantity counts. He said that the graders expect to see a full page for each essay. If you only write a half page, they'll be predisposed to not think much of your answer regardless of how correct it really is. Verbosity matters.

[MtnBrewer]

I'm sure you realize this, but there's a LOT more to the test than simply judging beers. AAMOF, that's the least part of the test. One thing that really helped my study group was to ask each other to describe styles, including stats, and include a recipe for each one. For example, we'd go around the group and one person would say to another "OK, tell me about dunkel". That person would have to give a style description, including stats, and recipe for a dunkel. If he got stuck, we'd help him through. Another thing that really helped me was to go through all the example question until I could answer every one in my head. So when I got to the test, I just had to recall the answers I already knew.

Our instructor is focusing on us learning about beer, in general. That includes tasting but is mainly about knowing the styles inside and out. He wants to be able to ask any one of us about maibock and we should be able to generate a page of material on the subject.

[djinkc]

....... Well, I've decided to become part of the solution and take the exam to become a judge. .............

For whatever reason, I'm just not motivated enough to do this. Our club has been sponsoring a series of study sessions. I didn't sign up - guess I shouldn't complain anymore.......Out of curiousity how much weight is given to Cat 24 and higher?

[MtnBrewer]

For whatever reason, I'm just not motivated enough to do this. Our club has been sponsoring a series of study sessions. I didn't sign up - guess I shouldn't complain anymore.......Out of curiousity how much weight is given to Cat 24 and higher?

I think we'll be treating all categories the same. That's my impression anyway.

[ncbeerbrewer]

Good Luck Mtn. I wish you the best. I respect judges since I don't think my taste palate is strong enough to decipher all the nuances and parts that some beers include. My taste is improving but I don't think I am fit for judging yet. There are many judges in my homebrew club and they do preps all the time. They are very knowledgable on styles for sure so your assessments make sense to me. Again good luck let us know how it goes and you do. Hang tough. Mike

[Sidney Porter]

Out of curiousity how much weight is given to Cat 24 and higher?

no cider or meads on the examAlso there are not any questions about cat 23, 22B, 16E, or 21

[MtnBrewer]

no cider or meads on the examAlso there are not any questions about cat 23, 22B, 16E, or 21

Good to know. The instructor didn't mention any of those cats but I just assumed they'd be part of it too.

[Yeasty Boy]

When our club got started three years ago, among the short list of things I wanted to accomplish was a comp and BJCP cert program. To date we have about 20 new judges in the club, and our latest comp (last w/e) had over 300 entries, and garnered five - yes, "five" - pro-am beers.I've thought quite a bit about the whole judging thing, both as a brewer and as a judge. Both must understand that the submitted entry is "beer" in its own right, pure and simple. From there we have two branches: is it good, and does it fit the style. Now, for scoring/prize-winning purposes both of those questions are valid. When you get a lame score back on one of your favorite beers, it may be that you entered it in the wrong cat. As a judge, I think it is bordering on dipshittedness to say something like "too much Special B in this one" when you were not privy to the grain bill. Just last weekend I tasted a pretty nice Old Ale that to my perception was one of the many attempts to fake UK malt by adding some Munich to Am 2-row. It had a definite "Spaten" flavor to it. I didn't tell him to use less Munich, but I did tell him that the malt profile bordered on Bavarian dark beers, and that IF Munich was being used, consider cutting it back a bit, and maybe subbing with a larger portion of higher-kilned UK pale, like MO.If I were to get that score sheet, and I hadn't used any Munich, I think I could still use the info. What's the difference? I didn't tell him what he did; I told him what I taste. There is no denying what I taste. My pallet my be poorly trained or not, but I taste Munich malt here. Do something about that and I will score this beer higher next time.That goes for styles one doesn't like, all the more so. It is of no real consequence that I happened to enjoy that Old Ale; it was not to style. If I can't stand your Cali Common (and trust me, I can't) I can still give you a 44 when you nail it. I know the style, I know what the brewers and buyers are looking for, and I think I can even help you tweak your recipe a bit towards that disgusting concoction should you be so inclined.At least, that's what I aspire to. In some ways it may be easier to judge styles you don't like - if you can keep your ego in check - than styles you do. Give me a glass of super-hoppy UK IPA or a rich Dubbel that has no major off-flavors, and I'm so happy I don't know what to say. Give me a glass of American Wheat and I can tell you exactly what I think of it, good and bad.And for those of you with gripes about judges, you really should consider telling them about it (tactfully, of course.) We only get better at this with practice and feedback. As judging gets better, competition gets more intense, and brewing gets better and beer gets better and life gets better.

[stellarbrew]

When our club got started three years ago, among the short list of things I wanted to accomplish was a comp and BJCP cert program. To date we have about 20 new judges in the club, and our latest comp (last w/e) had over 300 entries, and garnered five - yes, "five" - pro-am beers.I've thought quite a bit about the whole judging thing, both as a brewer and as a judge. Both must understand that the submitted entry is "beer" in its own right, pure and simple. From there we have two branches: is it good, and does it fit the style. Now, for scoring/prize-winning purposes both of those questions are valid. When you get a lame score back on one of your favorite beers, it may be that you entered it in the wrong cat. As a judge, I think it is bordering on dipshittedness to say something like "too much Special B in this one" when you were not privy to the grain bill. Just last weekend I tasted a pretty nice Old Ale that to my perception was one of the many attempts to fake UK malt by adding some Munich to Am 2-row. It had a definite "Spaten" flavor to it. I didn't tell him to use less Munich, but I did tell him that the malt profile bordered on Bavarian dark beers, and that IF Munich was being used, consider cutting it back a bit, and maybe subbing with a larger portion of higher-kilned UK pale, like MO.If I were to get that score sheet, and I hadn't used any Munich, I think I could still use the info. What's the difference? I didn't tell him what he did; I told him what I taste. There is no denying what I taste. My pallet my be poorly trained or not, but I taste Munich malt here. Do something about that and I will score this beer higher next time.That goes for styles one doesn't like, all the more so. It is of no real consequence that I happened to enjoy that Old Ale; it was not to style. If I can't stand your Cali Common (and trust me, I can't) I can still give you a 44 when you nail it. I know the style, I know what the brewers and buyers are looking for, and I think I can even help you tweak your recipe a bit towards that disgusting concoction should you be so inclined.At least, that's what I aspire to. In some ways it may be easier to judge styles you don't like - if you can keep your ego in check - than styles you do. Give me a glass of super-hoppy UK IPA or a rich Dubbel that has no major off-flavors, and I'm so happy I don't know what to say. Give me a glass of American Wheat and I can tell you exactly what I think of it, good and bad.And for those of you with gripes about judges, you really should consider telling them about it (tactfully, of course.) We only get better at this with practice and feedback. As judging gets better, competition gets more intense, and brewing gets better and beer gets better and life gets better.

I thought about tactfully telling that one judge that the C-120 he was imagining in my beer wasn't there, but I figured I would just sound sour grapes, and he probably wouldn't even remember the beer. You tell me, do you think he would likely appreciate hearing from me on that point?

[MtnBrewer]

Yeasty my instructor and some of the students in the class helped judge that comp last weekend.As for the Special B issue, I agree and so does the instructor. He said that the BJCP stresses that judges should not only judge the beer but help the brewer do better next time by adding helpful comments. However, he also said that if you're not 100% sure of something, don't mention it. It's ok to apologize and tell the brewer that you don't know how to assist him. In this particular case, I think it would have been better to note the dried fruit and toffee flavors that were out of style and also note that this could have been caused by using too much dark crystal malt.

[stellarbrew]

Yeasty my instructor and some of the students in the class helped judge that comp last weekend.As for the Special B issue, I agree and so does the instructor. He said that the BJCP stresses that judges should not only judge the beer but help the brewer do better next time by adding helpful comments. However, he also said that if you're not 100% sure of something, don't mention it. It's ok to apologize and tell the brewer that you don't know how to assist him. In this particular case, I think it would have been better to note the dried fruit and toffee flavors that were out of style and also note that this could have been caused by using too much dark crystal malt.

Yes, I think that would have been better, and I believe he did actually mention dried fruit and toffee flavors along with his assessment that crystal malts darker than 120 L would be probably the cause. But still remains the larger point. There were no dried fruit or toffee flavors in that beer. I sent it to three different comps, and out of the 9 judges that tasted it, he was the only one who came up with anything like that. I know what crystal 120 tastes like, and believe me, this beer had nothing like that. I understand that he is human, and he can only report on what his taste buds tell him. My point is that he doesn't have the requisite sensory accuity needed to be an effective judge. Either that, or he has been mis-educated on what toffee and dried fruit taste like.

[Yeasty Boy]

Yeasty my instructor and some of the students in the class helped judge that comp last weekend.

You mean John? Kick him in the nuts for me. Luckily he won't recognize my username. It was so nice to see some of your guys up here. We needed the help. There were two flights on Saturday as well, just to keep it do-able.There have been a few times where there was something "off" in a beer, and I couldn't qutie place it and never felt comfortable with it. It was actually a good friend who has never been BJCP certified, but brewed for way longer than me, who pointed out: you can just say "I get something funky/unpleasant in the finish [e.g.] and I can't quite place it. Definitely doesn't belong there. (etc.)" Kind of a slap-your-forehead moment, but that's really what it's about: tell the entrant what you are tasting and what you think of it. If you like it or don't, and know what it is or not.THEN, if you happen to have a great beer, perfectly within style, and get a couple of bonehead judges who's scorings beat down that of the one who recognizes it for what it is, don't be bitter, just realize that this is how amateur brewing comps go. You take your lumps. Keep the same in mind when your buddy is weighed down with a bunch of medals. Comps are for getting medals and for getting feedback about your beers as they relate to styles. Brewing is about making beer your friends and you can enjoy together. That's the best piece of advice a judge can keep in mind. (The second one does get easier after some number of said medals....)

[Yeasty Boy]

I sent it to three different comps, and out of the 9 judges that tasted it, he was the only one who came up with anything like that. I know what crystal 120 tastes like, and believe me, this beer had nothing like that. I understand that he is human, and he can only report on what his taste buds tell him. My point is that he doesn't have the requisite sensory accuity needed to be an effective judge. Either that, or he has been mis-educated on what toffee and dried fruit taste like.

If that were me judging that beer, I would so love some feedback. All the better if you could have a couple of loving pints before you wrote the email. Something like:"I love you man. I appreciated your comments on my pale ale recently, and want you to know that out of 9 judges who've scored this beer you were the only one to mention toffee, dried fruit and 120L (which I agree would be inappropriate but was not in fact in this beer.) Your take on my beer was quite valuable in its uniqueness and I will certainly look into this aspect of the malt profile, so as to be sure to preclude its occurance in future competitions."If I got an email like that I'd be quick to respond with an apology and confession of my ignorance, etc. And you can bet I'd never ever write that someone shouldn't be using such-and-such grain in their beer.

[stellarbrew]

I need to keep in mind that judges have to learn by experience, just as brewers do. I'm curious, do judges confer with one another while they are judging? It seems like it would be helpful to a new judge as he's developing his skills if he could discuss his evaluation of a beer with a more seasoned judge. Maybe that's not pactical, or there may be the concern that a judge would be unduly sawyed or influenced by what another judge says?

[Thirsty]

I need to keep in mind that judges have to learn by experience, just as brewers do. I'm curious, do judges confer with one another while they are judging? It seems like it would be helpful to a new judge as he's developing his skills if he could discuss his evaluation of a beer with a more seasoned judge. Maybe that's not pactical, or there may be the concern that a judge would be unduly sawyed or influenced by what another judge says?

I feel it best to judge the beer without any conversation first, but keep half the sample, so after comparing notes, if I didnt click within 2 points of the other judge, I want to retry this beer to see if it is more or less than what I evaluated. The differential can be as much as 7 points, and most comps prefer keeping within 5, but I feel with discussion, the other judge(s) may have overlooked what you found, or the opposite and point something out that you overlooked. The other thing is some beers have a funky off-aroma when first opened, this may be gone within 10 seconds and be OK, but give a bad impression off the bat. If the flight is not going to yield a mini-BOS, a 2nd bottle should definitely be opened to make sure there is no contamination, and both (or 3) judges are on the same page. I dont feel there is any shame adjusting your score a few pts up or down if there is a reasonable cause, but there must be justification and it must make sense. At the Longshot, sitting next to me, I heard a veteran ranked judge score a cat 23 specialty a 43, and the other judge a 35. the base beer was specified, (pretty sure a bohemian pils, but with some kind of odd addition) and this guy would not budge a point. He made it a point to identify every reason why this beer was so high, and how you sit and wait for a great beer like this to come along, and justified every reason why the other dude needed to come over 40. He could have let it rest at 37 or 38 and been within tolerance, but he sold it as a 40+ beer, and to the entrant's advantage, somewhat strongarmed him into a reasonable score. I tasted the beer and it was flawless, regardless of anything else, a flawless beer to me should get its rank, then adjust for style congruence.

[Yeasty Boy]

Yeah, the "seven points" thing is pretty bogus. If the judges want to adjust points so that the better beer wins, fine. But I've had situations where two judges felt the bitterness was aggressive, and the other thought it was what made the beer stand out, and was still within style guidelines. What sense does it make to force the two to come up a point each, and the other guy down a point? They each tasted what they tasted, and the overall score was what it was.In this latest Best-of-Show there was some serious contention between the final three, and all six of us had pretty much a different idea of who should be where. My idea happened to be a little closer to the one master judge at the table (though we also differed) so I thought we could fight it out. His and my third ended up winning. I was throwing serious punches, too. It just happens like that, and at the end of the day, how your beer scored that day is just how it scored that day. I see no reason to manipulate the numbers. If a beer is loaded with diacetyl, and gets a 19 by the one hat notices it, and the other two are completely blind and give it a 34, so freaking be it.Sure, say "diacetyl," and let them taste again; but if that doesn't change their minds then the beer gets the score they give it.

[Sidney Porter]

My point is that he doesn't have the requisite sensory accuity needed to be an effective judge. Either that, or he has been mis-educated on what toffee and dried fruit taste like.

It seems pretty harsh to say that he doesn't have the sensory accuity to be a effective judge based upon one score sheet. What was his ranking?

[MtnBrewer]

You mean John? Kick him in the nuts for me. Luckily he won't recognize my username. It was so nice to see some of your guys up here. We needed the help. There were two flights on Saturday as well, just to keep it do-able.

There were two Johns from here: John Garbett and John Landreman. John Garbett is the instructor for the BJCP class.

Keep the same in mind when your buddy is weighed down with a bunch of medals.

That's pretty much how I deal with blktre.

[stellarbrew]

It seems pretty harsh to say that he doesn't have the sensory accuity to be a effective judge based upon one score sheet. What was his ranking?

Yeah, that may have been too harsh. I was just dumbfounded how he was finding such distinct flavors in the beer that aren't there. I'll have to dig out that score sheet at home to see his ranking, but I think it said novice.