75 replies to this topic

[MtnBrewer]

In the past I've been fairly critical of BJCP judges, in particular the consistency of judging that I've witnessed has been poor. It's gotten to the point where I don't even enter competitions any more. Well, I've decided to become part of the solution and take the exam to become a judge. A judge here in town has started a class twice a month to prepare a group of wanna-be judges to take the exam. This is going to be a very intensive program in which we will learn everything there is to know about all of the styles. Hopefully we can finish before the BJCP changes the guidelines again. This class is going to take well over a year to complete, at which time those of us that are left will take the exam. In the meantime, we will be stewarding and judging as many events as we can to try to pick up experience points.This area has a great beer culture but for some reason we are very short on judges. The motivation for our teacher is to try to rectify that situation. Right now there are around 20 people in the class but I don't know how many will stick it out to the end. Everybody seems pretty motivated now but a year is a long time.

[CaptRon]

I think there is a huge fundamental problem with food and beverage judging, that everyone tastes things differently and people just don't like certain things. For example, I HATE Beets so if I were a food judge and one of the dishes was some kind of beet dish my findings would be biased due to me flat out not liking beets.I'm sure Beer judging is the same way, some people don't like a certain hop, some don't like a certain malt, some don't like stouts/pale ales/etc.All that being said, have fun with it and good luck!

[strangebrewer]

Good on ya and good luck!I haven't entered in many comps as I don't do a whole lot of to style brewing. I somewhat prefer to live outside the set boxes. Let me know when you get to the section of the class that focus's on Brett, oxidative yeasts, Pedio, Lacto, aceto, and cheese flavors

[MtnBrewer]

I think there is a huge fundamental problem with food and beverage judging, that everyone tastes things differently and people just don't like certain things. For example, I HATE Beets so if I were a food judge and one of the dishes was some kind of beet dish my findings would be biased due to me flat out not liking beets.I'm sure Beer judging is the same way, some people don't like a certain hop, some don't like a certain malt, some don't like stouts/pale ales/etc.All that being said, have fun with it and good luck!

But judging isn't about what you like or don't like. It's about how well a thing fits a certain style. So it's supposed to be more objective than subjective. Supposed to be, because that's my major gripe. It isn't (or hasn't been in my experience) objective enough. There's always going to be a certain amount of subjectivity (particularly in the Overall Impression area) but I think the goal should be to minimize that. I've studied wine judging and I think there's more objectivity there so I know it can be done.

[MtnBrewer]

Good on ya and good luck!I haven't entered in many comps as I don't do a whole lot of to style brewing. I somewhat prefer to live outside the set boxes. Let me know when you get to the section of the class that focuses on Brett, oxidative yeasts, Pedio, Lacto, aceto, and cheese flavors

We'll definitely get there. Don't know when but it's coming. We'll be tasting (and judging) a lot of commercial beers in this process. The instructor has already said to bring a little extra cash on the days we're tasting lambics to cover the cost of the beers he will be buying.I'm an in-between the lines brewer myself and never really tried to hit any style categories. So this should be interesting.

[stellarbrew]

Beyond subjectivity vs. objectivity, my experience tells me that some judges can't taste their way out of a paper bag.When a judge critcizes the the taste of crystal 120 L in my light golden colored pale ale, and how it doesn't conform to style, when the other two judges correctly did not perceive any crystal 120, because the only crystal I used in that beer was 1/2 pound of crystal 40 L, then I think there is a judge who should perhaps pursue a different avocation.Also, when one judge tells me that I have too much maltiness for style, and another judge tells me I need more maltiness for that style, for the same beer, I'm left scratching my head.I applaud those who choose to educate themselves before deciding to judge.

[MtnBrewer]

Beyond subjectivity vs. objectivity, my experience tells me that some judges can't taste their way out of a paper bag.When a judge critcizes the the taste of crystal 120 L in my light golden colored pale ale, and how it doesn't conform to style, when the other two judges correctly did not perceive any crystal 120, because the only crystal I used in that beer was 1/2 pound of crystal 40 L, then I think there is a judge who should perhaps pursue a different avocation.Also, when one judge tells me that I have too much maltiness for style, and another judge tells me I need more maltiness for that style, for the same beer, I'm left scratching my head.I applaud those who choose to educate themselves before deciding to judge.

That's exactly the type of criticism of judges that I've aired in the past as well. I had a one judge tell me that there wasn't enough roasted flavor in my brown porter and another tell me that there was too much. On one hand, I know they're all volunteers who are doing the best they can. But I think you need to be able to do better than that, frankly.

[MtnBrewer]

Hey Greg,In my opinion, finding faults in beer correctly is the number one priority. I hope you instructor either buys the problematic beer kit, or knows how to dose beers to get the correct profiles of all these bad flavors. Then after that learn the styles. Once a brewers knowledge and experience allows them control the controllable's and concentrate on eliminating faults in their beer, then trying to brew to style or style like follows suit. But im like you. Comps are way to expensive for the subjectivity. I'm glad you decided to go forth with this. Your understanding of beer and your fairness will make you an excellent judge.

Yeah we'll be doing all of that. Last night he said that we'll be tasting beers that "will make your stomach churn".One thing that he is stressing so far is being fair and respectful to the entrant. He told us to always remember that some guy paid money for our opinion so we should try to be as positive and constructive as we can while still letting him know what can be improved in his beer.

[Thirsty]

I'm sure Beer judging is the same way, some people don't like a certain hop, some don't like a certain malt, some don't like stouts/pale ales/etc.

As Mountain said, the idea is to not be biased of opinion for what you personally like / dislike, but how close to the style does it fit. You can also request to judge certain styles, or request to avoid certain styles that do not fit well with your abilities, beforehand, the director will do what they can to accomodate these wishes. For example, I judged wood and smoked last year, and had to be subjective with 9 different rauchbiers. That is near impossible, once you get the greasy/bacon/jerky/smoke on your palate the nuances of the next beer are impossible.

We'll be tasting (and judging) a lot of commercial beers in this process.

I am taking the exam in November and have been doing this smae sort of syudy group (we have 8 or 9 in the class) and meet 2x/month. One tricky thing I noticed last class was we were judging some really good commercial beers, last week we did some Hofbrahaus helles, maibock, dunkel, and reissdorf kolsch. Well we were all scoring them in the low 40's because they were really great examples. There needs to be a chance to try some less than stellar examples. So for next class I am bringing a handful of entries that were leftover from the SA longshot comp. I ended up getting over 2 full cases of "non advancing" beers that are much closer to what the practice on judging needs to go. So a suggestion may be while you are apprenticing/stewarding local comps for experience points, check with the coordinator if you can get these leftovers for the betterment of your study group.

[MtnBrewer]

I am taking the exam in November and have been doing this smae sort of syudy group (we have 8 or 9 in the class) and meet 2x/month. One tricky thing I noticed last class was we were judging some really good commercial beers, last week we did some Hofbrahaus helles, maibock, dunkel, and reissdorf kolsch. Well we were all scoring them in the low 40's because they were really great examples. There needs to be a chance to try some less than stellar examples. So for next class I am bringing a handful of entries that were leftover from the SA longshot comp. I ended up getting over 2 full cases of "non advancing" beers that are much closer to what the practice on judging needs to go. So a suggestion may be while you are apprenticing/stewarding local comps for experience points, check with the coordinator if you can get these leftovers for the betterment of your study group.

That's a really good idea; I'll pass it along to the instructor. He may already be planning such a thing. I do know that he said we'd be tasting some flawed beers, whether they'll be doctored by him or rejects from a comp or both, I don't know.

[3rd party JKor]

Good luck, MTN. I don't think I have the chops to be a judge, though I've thought about it. I'm more of a 'mmmm...this is good! GLUG, GLUG, GLUG...urrrrppp!!!' type of taster than a 'sip and spit' type of taster.

[MtnBrewer]

Believe me, spitting is NOT part of the protocol.

[denny]

I'm sure Beer judging is the same way, some people don't like a certain hop, some don't like a certain malt, some don't like stouts/pale ales/etc.

I hate wheat beers, but I've learned enough about them that I can fairly judge one. I don't have to enjoy it to be able evaluate it.

[denny]

We'll definitely get there. Don't know when but it's coming. We'll be tasting (and judging) a lot of commercial beers in this process. The instructor has already said to bring a little extra cash on the days we're tasting lambics to cover the cost of the beers he will be buying.I'm an in-between the lines brewer myself and never really tried to hit any style categories. So this should be interesting.

I'm sure you realize this, but there's a LOT more to the test than simply judging beers. AAMOF, that's the least part of the test. One thing that really helped my study group was to ask each other to describe styles, including stats, and include a recipe for each one. For example, we'd go around the group and one person would say to another "OK, tell me about dunkel". That person would have to give a style description, including stats, and recipe for a dunkel. If he got stuck, we'd help him through. Another thing that really helped me was to go through all the example question until I could answer every one in my head. So when I got to the test, I just had to recall the answers I already knew.

Edited by denny, 10 June 2009 - 11:02 AM.

[3rd party JKor]

I'm sure you realize this, but there's a LOT more to the test than simply judging beers. AAMOF, that's the least part of the test.

What's the other part? Testing that you turn your nose up to the proper level when speaking with the uneducated?

[denny]

What's the other part? Testing that you turn your nose up to the proper level when speaking with the uneducated?

I don't think that deserves an answer....

[Thirsty]

What's the other part? Testing that you turn your nose up to the proper level when speaking with the uneducated?

Naw that happens automatically with personality.The essay portion has you describe similarities and differences of several styles while specifying the guidelines and pointing out history and ingredients indigenous to each. Plus all kinds of tweener questions dealing with BJCP and history / tradition.

[3rd party JKor]

I don't think that deserves an answer....

So that isn't part of the test?I'm kidding, Denny. I know it's part of the test.