61 replies to this topic

[Genesee Ted]

So RIMS is superior or am I missing something? Is it more complicated to build, operate, or more costly?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Both expensive options. My guess is RIMS is a little bit more, but the rest of your rig will cost a lot to be hands off, so the difference would be negligible.Cheers,Rich

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

If you already have a pump, a herms isn't much to add. You could possibly use the same coil for herms and IC depending on how you set up the connections.

[BlKtRe]

So RIMS is superior or am I missing something? Is it more complicated to build, operate, or more costly?

Both expensive options. My guess is RIMS is a little bit more, but the rest of your rig will cost a lot to be hands off, so the difference would be negligible.

Not sure if RIMS is superior. A RIMS will take up less of a foot print and that is a plus for me. Another plus of a RIMS is pretty much what I described already about multiple vessels and constant firing of burners to maintain a HERMS through out the brew day. This is a waste and costly use of propane or NG in my book. So over time, Id say a HERMS is going to cost more money to operate. Its possible a RIMS will cost a little bit more in a equipment build, but over time its cheaper to run. You also have pretty much a heat on demand system with the RIMS from the time you start your brewday. No waiting for HERMS water to heat. All you need to do is flip a switch and open a valve. Boom done. I also dont think when using a cooler MT a constant recirc. is really necessary for either method. Once you nail your mash temp I see no reason to constantly recir. You can recirc. towards the last 15min of the mash and still achieve crystal clear wort as you would doing a constant recirc. A constantly recir. isnt going to hurt things either. Equipment should last longer if you dont. A technique that really shouldn't matter either way. As a matter of fact, Ive also done a 70min mash, then recir. to mashout for the final 15-20min. for a total of a 60 min. mash. So basically the malts were already converted inside that 70min. Maybe even converted at 20min. Fwiw, I dont think this topic really got off topic at all. It spoke of benefits of each technique pretty well. But what could happen to make this thread even better if there was a breakdown on how to build and setup the RIMS Marty posted.

Edited by BlKtRe, 14 April 2011 - 07:14 AM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Not sure if RIMS is superior. A RIMS will take up less of a foot print and that is a plus for me. Another plus of a RIMS is pretty much what I described already about multiple vessels and constant firing of burners to maintain a HERMS through out the brew day. This is a waste and costly use of propane or NG in my book. So over time, Id say a HERMS is going to cost more money to operate. Its possible a RIMS will cost a little bit more in a equipment build, but over time its cheaper to run. You also have pretty much a heat on demand system with the RIMS from the time you start your brewday. No waiting for HERMS water to heat. All you need to do is flip a switch and open a valve. Boom done. I also dont think when using a cooler MT a constant recirc. is really necessary for either method. Once you nail your mash temp I see no reason to constantly recir. You can recirc. towards the last 15min of the mash and still achieve crystal clear wort as you would doing a constant recirc. A constantly recir. isnt going to hurt things either. Equipment should last longer if you dont. A technique that really shouldn't matter either way. As a matter of fact, Ive also done a 70min mash, then recir. to mashout for the final 15-20min. for a total of a 60 min. mash. So basically the malts were already converted inside that 70min. Maybe even converted at 20min. Fwiw, I dont think this topic really got off topic at all. It spoke of benefits of each technique pretty well. But what could happen to make this thread even better if there was a breakdown on how to build and setup the RIMS Marty posted.

THIS!!! Cheers,Rich

[JoelR]

Hopefully this is on topic. I am finishing a prototype of a RIMS using extreme temp. heat tape (www.mcmaster.com 4550T241) wrapped about a section of 1/2 inch stainless steel pipe. I made two sections and it brings 3 gallons of water up 1 degree/minute at 50% power (30 seconds on, 30 seconds off).Might be a compromise between the HERMS and RIMS?If there is interest, I can post pictures.Joel

[SchwanzBrewer]

Hopefully this is on topic. I am finishing a prototype of a RIMS using extreme temp. heat tape (www.mcmaster.com 4550T241) wrapped about a section of 1/2 inch stainless steel pipe. I made two sections and it brings 3 gallons of water up 1 degree/minute at 50% power (30 seconds on, 30 seconds off).Might be a compromise between the HERMS and RIMS?If there is interest, I can post pictures.Joel

Definitely post pictures. Any reason why you chose a stainless pipe? I understand that it come to temp and hold better than copper, but I think you might ramp the heat a little faster with copper since its better at transferring heat. Also, is your pipe just straight or coiled? You might consider coiling so there is more surface area in contact over time in the space provided. (I am assuming 1 deg/min is kind of slow). PICTURES! I've never seen that heat tape before, uber cool use!Cheers,Rich

[JoelR]

Rich,1) I made the first one out of copper, it works fine, but I wanted something a bit stronger.2) In the diagram, the use of tees and end caps is to be able to clean out the straight pipe with a long brush.3) Currently we are running it at 50% of the power for testing, and getting the 1 degree/min for 3 gallon rise.4) The mash tun is a 10 gallon Gott cooler. Here is a diagram. I will take a couple of pictures tomorrow so you can see the setup.Of course: A ) Only power from a GFI breaker or outlet.B ) Make sure you have a pressure release on the loop, we have put in a pressure release valve for testing. Joel

[JoelR]

Rich,1) I made the first one out of copper, it works fine, but I wanted something a bit stronger.2) In the diagram, the use of tees and end caps is to be able to clean out the straight pipe with a long brush.3) Currently we are running it at 50% of the power for testing, and getting the 1 degree/min for 3 gallon rise.4) The mash tun is a 10 gallon Gott cooler. Here is a diagram. I will take a couple of pictures tomorrow so you can see the setup.Of course: A ) Only power from a GFI breaker or outlet.B ) Make sure you have a pressure release on the loop, we have put in a pressure release valve for testing. Joel

Update: With 1000 Watts for an immersive heater, the watt calculator at brewheads predicted slightly over a 2 degree per minute for 3 gallons of water. Using the pipe heater approach, with 1000 Watts, I am achieving a 1.3 degree/minute rise for 3 gallons, with maximum flow rate of the pump. Pictures later. Joel

[davelew]

Definitely post pictures. Any reason why you chose a stainless pipe? I understand that it come to temp and hold better than copper, but I think you might ramp the heat a little faster with copper since its better at transferring heat. Also, is your pipe just straight or coiled? You might consider coiling so there is more surface area in contact over time in the space provided. (I am assuming 1 deg/min is kind of slow). PICTURES! I've never seen that heat tape before, uber cool use!Cheers,Rich

Copper has a higher thermal conductivity, but that just means the outside will be cooler using copper instead of stainless. Stainless is stronger and more durable and less reactive, so I think stainless is a good choice.1 deg/min is pretty reasonable. The RIMS would only be used to counteract temperature loss for a long mash and to move between mash rests. Much more than 1 deg/min often results in scorched wort, and 20 minute temperature ramps for a Fix 50-60-70 seems reasonable.

[JoelR]

Copper has a higher thermal conductivity, but that just means the outside will be cooler using copper instead of stainless. Stainless is stronger and more durable and less reactive, so I think stainless is a good choice.1 deg/min is pretty reasonable. The RIMS would only be used to counteract temperature loss for a long mash and to move between mash rests. Much more than 1 deg/min often results in scorched wort, and 20 minute temperature ramps for a Fix 50-60-70 seems reasonable.

Parts from McMaster-Carr1 1 each 4550T141 Extreme-Temperature Heat Tape 13 Watts/Square Inch, 8 ft Length, 624 Watts, 120 V today $69.07 each 69.072 2 each 4464K51 Type 304 Stainless STL Threaded Pipe Fitting 1/2" Pipe Size, Tee, 150 PSI today $7.18 each 14.363 1 each 4813K124 Standard-Wall Type 304/304L SS Threaded Pipe 1/2" Pipe, 0.84" OD, 18" L, 13/16" Thread Length today $18.65 each 18.654 2 each 4464K234 Type 304 Stainless STL Threaded Pipe Fitting 1/2" Pipe Size, Square Head Plug, 150 PSI today $3.21 each 6.425 1 roll 9379K92 Ultra-High Temp Foil-Faced Insulation Strip 1/2" Thick, 2" X 12' today $11.39 roll 11.39 Merchandise total $119.89It is modular, so you can add additional sections as you see fit. I have two (one made of copper, one of the above parts).Joel

[SchwanzBrewer]

You have pics of it mounted? Love me some brewery pr0n.Cheers,Rich

[JoelR]

Here is the first. Here is the second.

[JoelR]

Here is the first. Here is the second.

Update: Mashing now, tracking within 0.25 of a degree F. All parts are easy to get, and it is very easy to clean. No heating elements in the pipe. Husky-X stand (35 bucks from home deb-it) for to hold the mashtun.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Just curious... why do you need a RIMS with a cooler?Cheers,Rich

[JoelR]

Just curious... why do you need a RIMS with a cooler?Cheers,Rich

I wanted tight temp control without monitoring. I would add heat by infusing hot water but would have to monitor the temp for mash time. Also, I understand the recirculation helps with the clarity of the finished product. I still add hot water to mash out and batch sparge, although after fine tuning I have been getting 2 degrees a minute rise on a four gallon mash (a little loose), so I might try and mash out using the rims heater a some point. Joel

[HVB]

I am intrigued by this. What are you running your pump at to get those rise rates? 100%, 50% any idea.

[JoelR]

I am intrigued by this. What are you running your pump at to get those rise rates? 100%, 50% any idea.

I have the pump full open, the rise is measured in the cooler, and the extreme temp heat tape is at 99% on time. I have insulated the pipes and and minimum length of run uninsulated outside of the cooler. I measured 1.3 degrees circulating water only, with the pump full open. In both cases I keep the pump running for the entire time and cycle the heaters.The temp was measured using an analog devices TMP03, https://www.analog.c...ts/product.htmland also observed on the brewtherms on the output of the mash tun and exiting the heaters. The TMP03 is in the mashtun and tracks the brewterm exiting the mashtun within 1/2 a degree. We get a 3 to 4 degree rise through the pipe heaters (directly observed on the brewthrems). The temp is was plotted on labview. And the slope measured. I am running another batch on Friday and will provide the graph (dump the data to a file).Joel

[HVB]

The temp is was plotted on labview.

Agh .. brings me back to the days of my Senior EE project .. Thanks for the info. I currently have a small cooler with an element and a 19' coil of 1/2 copper. Thinking this may be a more compact design and work well with some changes I am going to make.

[positiveContact]

Matlab > Labview I kid (mostly) - wish I could see the plots. I'll have to check them out when I get home.