59 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Pilsener malt tends to be high in protein, so if the boil isn't vigorous and long enough, you can get chill haze with pilsener malt. Pilsener and 6-row are two of the more finicky malts wrt chill haze, it's annoying that they're used in so many pale beers where the haze is obvious.

Yeah, this is interesting and I have heard before that pilsner has more protein and therefore may require more care to get it clear. I would have to say that in the vast majority of cases, I cannot tell where I used pils or where I just used 2-row. Maybe in the interest of clarity and simplicity, I'll make some of these light-colored beers with 2-row instead of pils and see what's what. I went back to my notes again and looked at a cerveza clara that I made earlier this year that was clear. It did have 6½ pounds of pils in it along with vienna, corn and carafoam. But that one mashed for 90 minutes so maybe a longer mash time helps with clarity?? Cheers.

[BrewerGeorge]

Yeah, this is interesting and I have heard before that pilsner has more protein and therefore may require more care to get it clear. I would have to say that in the vast majority of cases, I cannot tell where I used pils or where I just used 2-row. Maybe in the interest of clarity and simplicity, I'll make some of these light-colored beers with 2-row instead of pils and see what's what. I went back to my notes again and looked at a cerveza clara that I made earlier this year that was clear. It did have 6½ pounds of pils in it along with vienna, corn and carafoam. But that one mashed for 90 minutes so maybe a longer mash time helps with clarity?? Cheers.

Didn't you make a British Summer ale recently with Marris Otter? If it does not have clarity problems, it would steer you toward the higher protein in pilsner malt being the cause.

[Big Nake]

Didn't you make a British Summer ale recently with Marris Otter? If it does not have clarity problems, it would steer you toward the higher protein in pilsner malt being the cause.

Yes, there was some MO in that beer along with English hops but then S-23 lager yeast. I expect that beer to be pretty clear because I added CaCl & a small amount of gypsum to the mash and then I ignored the kettle additions that EZ_Water suggested. I also understand that S-23 is a high-floccing yeast so I have some hope for that beer which is still in primary. Thanks George & cheers to you.

[zymot]

My muni water can come from 3 sources. It can also be a blend of the three sources. I called the city and they could not tell me what my address was getting. I sent off a sample to Ward Labs to be tested.In the end, I came to a conclusion. I either buy distilled or filtered water and add salts as my best judgement or calculations or guessing will allow.OrI could rely on FiveStar Chemicals 5.2 buffer product. None of the water I might get exceeds what 5.2 can handle. So I put little less than a tablespoon in my mash and I do not worry about it.As I understand it, if you use 50%-75% distilled water and a moderate amount of 5.2, you should be dead on in the mash pH. I batch sparge so I am not worried about adding 5.2 for the sparge additions. As for the soapy flavor and 5.2, I have never had that.I got a D in chemistry in high school. The only thing that I could use to wrap my head around brewing water chemistry is Palmer's water section and the nomograph on the back page. No math, just connect the dots.The extreme test would be use 100% distilled water and a proven combination of salts that match a specific style. Example: Burton salts and an English Pale Ale.IMHO Lay off the salt additions. For what ever reason, it does not appear to be working for you.zymot

[Stout_fan]

it's the mush tun b/c that's where the grains get mushy. duh!

Open up your mill gap a bit.You're milling too fine.

Edited by Stout_fan, 18 June 2010 - 05:18 AM.

[Stout_fan]

Pilsener malt tends to be high in protein, so if the boil isn't vigorous and long enough, you can get chill haze with pilsener malt. ...

Yep, anything with pilsner malt gets a 90 minute boil here. Brit 2 row, my standard, is a 60.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yep, anything with pilsner malt gets a 90 minute boil here. Brit 2 row, my standard, is a 60.

I've never heard this. I tend to have pretty vigorous boils so would 60 min still do the trick?

[Stout_fan]

My muni water can come from 3 sources. It can also be a blend of the three sources. I called the city and they could not tell me what my address was getting. ...zymot

Oh no, they crossed the streams.

[Stout_fan]

I've never heard this. I tend to have pretty vigorous boils so would 60 min still do the trick?

Sorry zym. I cannot remember the source of this. I think it was our BJCP class. I was told that it needed the 90 minutes. My Samiclaus 1.120 OG is, except for adjuncts, Pilsner and finishes crystal clear. It takes the yeast about 6 months to chew through all that sugar with a FG of 1.014!I've two of the three cornies that are going on their third month of diacetyl rest. Gravity is down but they are still outgassing and butterscotch bombs.

[Malzig]

I've never heard this. I tend to have pretty vigorous boils so would 60 min still do the trick?

As far as I know, the 90 min boil for Pilsner Malt comes from the rate of DMS evolution from the boil. If you don't have DMS, then you probably don't need to boil longer.Ken,I don't add salts to the boil, either, only the mash. I've never heard of this cloudy issue with salt additions before, so it's hard to say what's going on.As far as flavor goes, I see a couple things:- Your Mg level is ideal in your base water. You shouldn't be adding any Epsom Salt. Sure, you're staying below the 30 ppm upper limit, but you're going from the middle of the range to just barely acceptable. That's not ideal for something you don't need. Look at it this way, you're going from good to worse.- For that lager example you gave, to balance your Cl and get your Ca where it should be, I think you only need about 1.5 g Gypsum total in 8 gallons of brewing water. Or maybe 1 g each of Gypsum and CaCl2 to get balance SO4:Cl. But you're adding more than 8 grams of salt (to balance your CO3, I assume). I think you may be running into the problem with trying to make a hoppy, pale lager with high carbonate water. If you've ever had a Dortmunder Export made with the traditional water, the minerals are prominent in the flavor, like drinking mineral water. In that style, I like the salty taste of the water, but it's a very different tasting beer than one made with low mineral water.

[Big Nake]

I see that on some of my later batches, I eased off the additions and I have now made 2 beers with some additions to the mash, but not the kettle. But I'm noticing something else here too. The additions made to the kettle (I'm assuming here...) create the feeling like the beer is WAY more carbed for some reason. I don't know if the additions actually help produce more carb or if it's just a feeling on your toungue or what. But one beer that's on tap now feels like it's going to explode out of your mouth because of the fizziness. As a result, 2 beers that just went to kegs, got cold and are being carbed will force carb for a shorter time to see if I can get around this excess liveliness. I tasted both beers flat and they seem good, but I'm going to let them go for maybe 40 hours of force-carb time as opposed to the usual 48 hours at 30psi. Cheers.

[orudis]

Here's an example. I just got done cutting the grass and it's warm and sunny here today. I went downstairs and tapped a glass of beer that was made with this recipe...7¼ lbs pilsner malt2 lbs munich 4 oz carafoam1 oz Hallertau Tradition 5.3% for 60 mins½ oz Hallertau 3.8% for 5 mins½ oz Hallertau 3.8% for 1 minuteWhite Labs 840 American Lager yeastThe mash water was 66% distilled. The mash additions were 1.5 grams CaCl and 1.6 grams epsom salt. The kettle additions (suggested by EZ_Water) were 2.5 grams CaCl and 2.7 grams epsom salt. No gypsum. The SRM of the beer is 5 and the sheet says that my pH is suitable for beers in the 5 to 10 SRM range and that the style was "balanced". This beer has a very dry finish and an aspirin-like taste to it. It probably would have been a kick-ass beer if I had just added a tsp of calcium chloride to the mash and called it a day. When you're done with the beer, your mouth feels dry. There is very little sweetness to the beer. Or maybe it's better to say that the beer just comes across bitter, harsh and dry. I am going to drink it because it's beer. But I am having a number of people over on Father's Day and my Mexican Vienna will probably be on tap along with another lager that was made with fewer water additions. I don't know if it will be any better, but I have 2 taps right now serving beers with this dry, harsh quality. :angry:Ps. Oh, and this beer is horrendously cloudy too. Looks like a hefeweizen.

FWIW, the spreadsheet I use tells me that with your water numbers, a 5 SRM beer, and diluting with 66% RO (which is what I do too) .5 grams CaCl per gallon gives an RA of 2, which is close enough to the recommended RA of -2. I haven't been paying that much attention to the cloride/sulfate ratio but you could also use 75% RO water and .25 tsp CaCl and .25 tsp gypsum per gallon to end up at the correct RA. Also, seems obvious, but do you normally use irish moss, did that change?

[Big Nake]

FWIW, the spreadsheet I use tells me that with your water numbers, a 5 SRM beer, and diluting with 66% RO (which is what I do too) .5 grams CaCl per gallon gives an RA of 2, which is close enough to the recommended RA of -2. I haven't been paying that much attention to the cloride/sulfate ratio but you could also use 75% RO water and .25 tsp CaCl and .25 tsp gypsum per gallon to end up at the correct RA. Also, seems obvious, but do you normally use irish moss, did that change?

Thanks Orudis. I have been using Whirfloc in place of IM and I have also had the occasional use of Supermoss. On some upcoming light-colored beers, I may go with small amounts of CaCl along with some gypsum in the mash to see how it behaves. The question is whether gypsum is suitable for styles like pilsner, helles, kolsch, etc. I suppose that in small quantities it would be okay... but I would hate to introduce that sharp harshness to a style like that. Cheers!

[orudis]

Thanks Orudis. I have been using Whirfloc in place of IM and I have also had the occasional use of Supermoss. On some upcoming light-colored beers, I may go with small amounts of CaCl along with some gypsum in the mash to see how it behaves. The question is whether gypsum is suitable for styles like pilsner, helles, kolsch, etc. I suppose that in small quantities it would be okay... but I would hate to introduce that sharp harshness to a style like that. Cheers!

Assuming you are using around 8 gallons of water total, we would be adding roughly the same amount of CaCl, but you are adding an additional 4.3 grams of epsom, which might be the problem. The spreadsheet I use doesn't have entry fields for epsom, but my mg levels are OK so I just ignore mg anyway.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Assuming you are using around 8 gallons of water total, we would be adding roughly the same amount of CaCl, but you are adding an additional 4.3 grams of epsom, which might be the problem. The spreadsheet I use doesn't have entry fields for epsom, but my mg levels are OK so I just ignore mg anyway.

wait, are you saying WF adds calcium? what effect would this have on the final product?

[orudis]

wait, are you saying WF adds calcium? what effect would this have on the final product?

?? No, whirlfoc/moss are just clarifying agents. He said his beer was now cloudy and I was just double checking that there wasn't a change in clarification additions. Since he's adding epsom he's adding sulfate which isn't appropriate for most light lagers, so maybe that's the source of the problem. epsom will also lower ph slightly, so since he's adding as much cacl as my software tells me too, plus another several grams of epsom, overall it could be the case that he's lowering ph too much. I don't use his software and don't know how much water in total he uses though. Like I said, for me, and a 5 SRM beer, and 66% distilled water, .5 grams per gallon cacl gets me where I need to be. I usually fiddle with the % RO dilution depending on the SRM and hoppiness of the beer, but in general cutting hard water with RO water then adding salts back is the way to go, IMO.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I'm using about 8 gallons of water total. If I use 66% distilled water in my mash, my Ca number drops from 34 to 26 and I need to add back about 3 grams (¾ tsp) of CaCl to the mash to get the Ca back to about 53. Then my Mg is down to 9 which doesn't concern me that much, but my chloride:sulfate ratio is 9.39 which is WAY in the "very malty" range for my water. I don't know if this should trouble me or not, but if I add some epsom salt to the mash the ratio will get closer to balanced. 2 grams of epsom salt will lower the ratio to 1.96 which goes to "malty" instead of "very malty". At that point, my RA is -33 and my ideal SRM range is 2 to 7. There seems to be a lot of ways to go here, but I'm not sure of the best. Do I just leave my ratio alone and mash a little lower or use more hops as a bittering addition or what? Imagine something like a light lager made with this water. It could have a very clunky maltiness to it and be lacking 'crispness' if I didn't adjust the ratio... or am I wrong?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

?? No, whirlfoc/moss are just clarifying agents. He said his beer was now cloudy and I was just double checking that there wasn't a change in clarification additions.

got it. I guess I wasn't following the thread close enough

[orudis]

Yeah, I'm using about 8 gallons of water total. If I use 66% distilled water in my mash, my Ca number drops from 34 to 26 and I need to add back about 3 grams (¾ tsp) of CaCl to the mash to get the Ca back to about 53. Then my Mg is down to 9 which doesn't concern me that much, but my chloride:sulfate ratio is 9.39 which is WAY in the "very malty" range for my water. I don't know if this should trouble me or not, but if I add some epsom salt to the mash the ratio will get closer to balanced. 2 grams of epsom salt will lower the ratio to 1.96 which goes to "malty" instead of "very malty". At that point, my RA is -33 and my ideal SRM range is 2 to 7. There seems to be a lot of ways to go here, but I'm not sure of the best. Do I just leave my ratio alone and mash a little lower or use more hops as a bittering addition or what? Imagine something like a light lager made with this water. It could have a very clunky maltiness to it and be lacking 'crispness' if I didn't adjust the ratio... or am I wrong?

It seems to me that an RA of -33 is too low for an SRM 5 beer, my software says to be at -2. Another aspect is that "light lager" could be a pretty hoppy german pilsner or a really malty, minerally dortmunder. So i would consider eliminating the epsom altogether and see what that does, it should (in the example you gave) at least get your mash pH right, then you can decide if it needs flavor adjustments. I know you have several other water chemistry threads and I'm sure this has come up but the waterganza episodes of brew strong might help. Our water is similar, mine is harder though. Its great untreated for porters/stouts, but brewing really light colored beers is challenging. I am currently about a year into working on perfecting pilsners- have cranked out a few great ones, a few losers, and a few "meh" beers.