59 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Feel free to revoke my board membership. Feel free to tell me to shut the **** up about this topic already. I so deserve it. There is more information about this here and also here if you haven't been reading this.Things move slowly in brewing as you guys know. What you make today you may not be drinking for 2 months. As a result, many of the beers I have made using the salt additions suggested my EZ_Water are coming to the taps. Many of these beers had calcium chloride, gypsum and/or epsom salt added to the mash and boil to balance out the water profile. I am now seeing a clarity issue with some of these beers (both light and dark) as well as a bit of a harsh, aspirin-like aftertaste which I assume is from the gypsum. When you use the EZ_Water sheet, you adjust the mash and the it suggests amounts for the boil as well and these numbers are usually higher. None of my final numbers show as "out of whack" at all, but some of these beers are suffering because of this. A pale ale of sorts went on tap over the weekend and it has this flavor. But it is also horrendously cloudy and most beers that I used to make in this color range would be ultra-clear. Does anyone know if kettle additions of CaCl, gypsum and /or epsom salts lead to nagging, pesky cloudiness? The small adjustment I attempted to make this way is not working. The dull, malty profile of my beers could have probably been adjusted by mashing a little lower or slightly bumping my bittering addition. I'm adding this for informational purposes because I'm clearly missing something with these additions. These latest beers are not undrinkable, but I can actually taste the results... it's not salty, but it's a little harsh.Sorry for the ramble!

[MakeMeHoppy]

Ken, I've only ever done salt/mineral additions to the mash. I add a little gypsum to the mash about 1 tsp for my pale ales and IPA because my water is very soft. I have had no problems with clarity from this. I will follow this thread as I know you have very consistent results with your beer and I assume the additions were the only change to your process.

[BlKtRe]

All I can add is that I played with salts years ago to try and "Get it Right" and my results were just like yours. I decided to stop playing around and just monitor my mash PH and get it as close to 5.2 as possible. I got lucky and 5 Star's PH 5.2 puts all my beers there excluding darker beers which align my PH on their own without the 5.2 addition. All my beers are where I like them at the taps. It just wasn't worth it any longer to play with salts, etc. I know the PH 5.2 doesn't work with all water profiles across the land, but thank gosh it works here. My brewing is made simple now and my life is happy because of it. I say go back to your old ways and stop wasting precious time and beer you are not happy with.

[Big Nake]

I say go back to your old ways and stop wasting precious time and beer you are not happy with.

Yes, that's what I will do. I made a beer on Monday where I just added some CaCl2 (as I have been doing) to get my calcium up. In the past, I would use small amounts of gypsum in something like an English Bitter and the results were good. The gypsum addition on those beers was just to the mash (as MakeMeHoppy suggested), not to the kettle. I don't consider this overly discouraging... just educational. Andy, I do have 5.2 in my arsenal and I may look into it again, but my wife has said that it gives the beer a soapy taste and I have seen other brewers comment on the same thing. Maybe these are the water profiles where 5.2 doesn't quite work right. Thanks for the replies and reading my rant! Cheers.

[BrewerGeorge]

Similar to what blktre says, I almost never use salts for chemistry, but just for their flavor/spice aspects. The only exception this would be the chalk and baking soda that I have to add to make black beers. For lighter beers, I tweak the salts into the range I want for flavor, then use acid to get the final target RA. Using salts only to lower RA seems to require WAY too much.I have also NEVER added salts to the kettle, but only to the mash.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

How much do you trust your water report?

[djinkc]

No clue here either. Campden is all I need for our water.Maybe you're getting cataracts

[Big Nake]

How much do you trust your water report?

I am going off of a Ward Labs report from maybe 5 years ago. I could send another sample to see if it has changed, but another local brewer just sent a sample and posted his numbers and they were pretty much the same... some numbers were 1ppm higher or lower, but nothing to lose sleep over. So I guess I trust the Ward Labs numbers and I trust that they haven't changed much since I submitted my sample.

Using salts only to lower RA seems to require WAY too much.I have also NEVER added salts to the kettle, but only to the mash.

Yep, I'm starting to subscribe to that theory George. My next visit to the LHBS will have an acid purchase, I believe. Cheers.

[BlKtRe]

Ken,Do you remember how long you were in primary with those beers that you used 5.2? Long fermentations can cause soapy flavors. So just a thought. Is your water soft? Cant remember this. If so then this can cause some soapy flavors. Might as well try 5.2 again while your experimenting. Just worry about mash PH using the 5.2 and forget the rest. Worth a try.Have you considered building RO water instead of trying to balance your current water with salts, etc?

[Big Nake]

Ken,Do you remember how long you were in primary with those beers that you used 5.2? Long fermentations can cause soapy flavors. So just a thought. Is your water soft? Cant remember this. If so then this can cause some soapy flavors. Might as well try 5.2 again while your experimenting. Just worry about mash PH using the 5.2 and forget the rest. Worth a try.Have you considered building RO water instead of trying to balance your current water with salts, etc?

Here are my numbers:pH: 6.6 Total dissolved solids (TDS): 264 Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm: 0.44 Cations/Anions, me/L: 3.3 / 3.4 Sodium: 13 Potassium: 2 Calcium: 34 Magnesium: 12 Total Hardness: 135 Nitrate, No3-N: 0.4 Sulfate, SO4-S: 9 Chloride: 21 Carbonate, CO3: <1 Bicarbonate, HCO3: 138 Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 113 I think my water has been referred to as "slightly hard". On lighter beers I use anywhere from 50% to 75% distilled water and the rest of the mash water is filtered tap and the sparge water is all filtered tap. On the 5.2, I do not taste "soapy" but my wife does. I cannot recall how long the primaries went with the 5.2 but it's worth a try to use it and make sure that the beer doesn't sit for too long in primary.

[BlKtRe]

Here are my numbers:Sodium: 13 Potassium: 2 Calcium: 34 Magnesium: 12 Total Hardness: 135 I think my water has been referred to as "slightly hard". On lighter beers I use anywhere from 50% to 75% distilled water and the rest of the mash water is filtered tap and the sparge water is all filtered tap. On the 5.2, I do not taste "soapy" but my wife does. I cannot recall how long the primaries went with the 5.2 but it's worth a try to use it and make sure that the beer doesn't sit for too long in primary.

My total water hardness is 180 putting it in the "Slightly Hard" category. I use 100% filtered tap water and the 5.2. My other minerals and total alkalinity are in line with yours except my Sodium is rather high at 120ppm. No soapy issues here. Id say our water is very similar. Lawrence Water Report

[Big Nake]

I should also mention that somewhere in this timeframe I also got fed up with my disagreeing thermometers and picked up the THERMAPEN which seems to work wonderfully. Before that, I may have been mashing too high which may have created an overly malty (or sweet) beer. That issue may have been solved by the new thermo and the issue I was having may just have been resolved by mashing a little lower. I'm kind of throwing my hands up at this point and assuming that I will just go back to my original brewing processes and just adding CaCl2 to the mash to get my calcium up into the right range. It's been an education, that's for sure. Cheers!

[albertv05]

Have you ever tried not using your local water at all and building up your mineral profile with distilled water? I have done that on every batch for the past few years with fantastic results. Sure, it's a little bit of a pain to pick up distilled water for every beer and it's an additional expense but the pros out weigh the cons in my brewing. My local water comes from multiple sources depending on the year and really it doesn't taste great; so why brew with it. I know I have taken the extreme but it works for me. Just a few notes on my process.- I use Ken Schwartz's BreWater 3.0 and a good digital gram scale to measure all my salts/minerals. - All additions are added to the mash at dough in and at sparge.- The mineral profile that I use is built up using classic water data, John Palmer's chloride-to-sulfate ratio, and other various data.- I always check my mash pH but 9 times out of 10 it's dead on in the 5.2-5.4 range.

[Big Nake]

Well, I have concluded (by my own brewing and also that of some of the local breweries who use Lake Michigan water) that our water is pretty good for brewing, generally. Some of them say that they just filter it while others say that they filter it (high chlorine) and then use small adjustments depending on style. Because of that, I have gotten away from getting RO or distilled water on a large scale. I just buy a few gallons of distilled water and use that with my tap water. The other issue is that I probably brew more light-colored lagers than any other homebrewer (seriously) and sometimes I feel like I am the only one looking into this because other homebrewers in my area are making larger, hoppier ales and maybe slight water issues don't come through the same way. But I do know that I made a string of nice summer lagers last year with just some distilled water in the mash, a tsp a calcium chloride in the mash and that's it. So I will go back to that process & chalk this up (pun?) to brewing education.

[albertv05]

Cloudiness could be lack of calcium; just a little tip. I think 50 ppm of calcium is the recommended minimum.

[3rd party JKor]

I've had some similar experiences recently, as well, Ken. I started adding salts last year. I've definitely noticed a harsher bitterness in some of my beers and a bit of what I might consider a soapy aftertaste in a few. I haven't cross-reference which beers had it, compared to what I added, but so far I'd say it has had a negative impact. Also, I have been pretty conservative in adding the salts. I have very low sulfate in my water so I've been adding gypsum to increase the calcium and sulfate levels. I'd say my sulfate level has been in the range of 75 to 150ppm according to the EZ_water spreadsheet, which is far off from the stated 'upper limit' of 350ppm.I'm considering going to lactic acid for mash pH adjustments and maybe adding some CaCl to get my calcium up.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've had some similar experiences recently, as well, Ken. I started adding salts last year. I've definitely noticed a harsher bitterness in some of my beers and a bit of what I might consider a soapy aftertaste in a few. I haven't cross-reference which beers had it, compared to what I added, but so far I'd say it has had a negative impact. Also, I have been pretty conservative in adding the salts. I have very low sulfate in my water so I've been adding gypsum to increase the calcium and sulfate levels. I'd say my sulfate level has been in the range of 75 to 150ppm according to the EZ_water spreadsheet, which is far off from the stated 'upper limit' of 350ppm.I'm considering going to lactic acid for mash pH adjustments and maybe adding some CaCl to get my calcium up.

JK - I've been using the spreadsheet. Any of these flavors in my beers? Maybe I just got lucky with my water

[3rd party JKor]

It probably depends a lot on your water, as well as what style your brewing and what salts you decide to add to get the contributions you're looking for.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It probably depends a lot on your water, as well as what style your brewing and what salts you decide to add to get the contributions you're looking for.

I feel like I may have had some issues with stouts but it's hard to tell. I'll make another this fall so I guess I'll find out then.

[Big Nake]

Here I thought I was making small additions but the sheet suggests kettle additions which are always higher. So if I add 2 grams of CaCl2 to the mash, it suggests something like 3.3 more grams to the kettle. Same with gypsum. None of my numbers got close to reaching upper limits (I think my magnesium reached 28 on one beer, limit being 30) but I can taste a harsher flavor in some of the beers I have right now and I'm quite certain these additions are the reason. On my next few batches, I'm going back to my original plan and then I will compare. Also, I have a Mexican Vienna (made with 940) in a cold, carbed keg right now that was made in February (before the additions) and I think it will be dynamite. But I did go back and look at notes for the past 5 or 6 beers. As I went through the EZ_Water sheets with my additions on it, I sounded like Homer. Doh. Sh!t. Fark! Oh Dammit! Doh! Fark!