59 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Here's an example. I just got done cutting the grass and it's warm and sunny here today. I went downstairs and tapped a glass of beer that was made with this recipe...7¼ lbs pilsner malt2 lbs munich 4 oz carafoam1 oz Hallertau Tradition 5.3% for 60 mins½ oz Hallertau 3.8% for 5 mins½ oz Hallertau 3.8% for 1 minuteWhite Labs 840 American Lager yeastThe mash water was 66% distilled. The mash additions were 1.5 grams CaCl and 1.6 grams epsom salt. The kettle additions (suggested by EZ_Water) were 2.5 grams CaCl and 2.7 grams epsom salt. No gypsum. The SRM of the beer is 5 and the sheet says that my pH is suitable for beers in the 5 to 10 SRM range and that the style was "balanced". This beer has a very dry finish and an aspirin-like taste to it. It probably would have been a kick-ass beer if I had just added a tsp of calcium chloride to the mash and called it a day. When you're done with the beer, your mouth feels dry. There is very little sweetness to the beer. Or maybe it's better to say that the beer just comes across bitter, harsh and dry. I am going to drink it because it's beer. But I am having a number of people over on Father's Day and my Mexican Vienna will probably be on tap along with another lager that was made with fewer water additions. I don't know if it will be any better, but I have 2 taps right now serving beers with this dry, harsh quality. :shock:Ps. Oh, and this beer is horrendously cloudy too. Looks like a hefeweizen.

[VolFan]

We have pretty good water here. I always filter and my brew buddy is sorta into salt additions. With that said, we use ProMash and only add to the mash and sparge water.I'm not real crazy about it as the beers were pretty good before but he seems to swear by and he's a solid brewer. Many, many ribbons to show for it, although he's not much into comps anymore.

[Stout_fan]

... I have also NEVER added salts to the kettle, but only to the mash.

As in Boil Kettle? If so then hail yea, I'm with ya'. You are trying to effect mash chemistry. What's the point of adding them to the boil kettle?

[BrewerGeorge]

As in Boil Kettle? If so then hail yea, I'm with ya'. You are trying to effect mash chemistry. What's the point of adding them to the boil kettle?

Spicing/flavor I guess. Personally, I think that's an idea left over from extract brewing that has no place in AG.

[Stout_fan]

Feel free to revoke my board membership. Feel free to tell me to shut the **** up about this topic already ...

Ken, ever visit the PH?Trust me, you are not a problem.Well, it's actually your problem, and we'd like to help you solve it.FWIW the only time I tried to adjust chemistry was on a my freshop JPA of last year. IIRC it was also a bit cloudy. But I managed to hose the ferment and had a bacteria infection, so that is one possible cause of my cloudiness as well.I'll be in Dearborn the end of this month / Independence day for a conference. Not too sure how close that is to your address. Perhaps I can swing by and look at your clear and not so clear beers?

[3rd party JKor]

As in Boil Kettle? If so then hail yea, I'm with ya'. You are trying to effect mash chemistry. What's the point of adding them to the boil kettle?

If you're trying to match a certain water profile, you should add the salts to all the water that you use in the brew. You could add the salts to the sparge water, but they have low solubility in pure water, so instead they are added to the boil kettle, where the lower pH allows the salts to dissolve.

[Big Nake]

If you're trying to match a certain water profile, you should add the salts to all the water that you use in the brew. You could add the salts to the sparge water, but they have low solubility in pure water, so instead they are added to the boil kettle, where the lower pH allows the salts to dissolve.

Right. Someone else here mentioned that your pH is critical at 2 points... the first being the mash and the second being the boil. I had never heard this so anyone who would like to stab at that comment, please feel free. But because of that, on the last batch I made (with only some CaCl2 in the mash), I took the pH of the mash with colorpHast strips and than also took the pH of the boil (both were right in range according to the key). But I mentioned making additions to the kettle a few times and nobody raised a red flag. How many people out there make kettle additions? Also, has anyone determined that kettle additions of gypsum, epsom salt or calcium chloride caused haze issues? Seems to be something there. Cheers.Stout_Fan... when you say "Dearborn", where do you mean? Keep me posted.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Right. Someone else here mentioned that your pH is critical at 2 points... the first being the mash and the second being the boil. I had never heard this so anyone who would like to stab at that comment, please feel free. But because of that, on the last batch I made (with only some CaCl2 in the mash), I took the pH of the mash with colorpHast strips and than also took the pH of the boil (both were right in range according to the key). But I mentioned making additions to the kettle a few times and nobody raised a red flag. How many people out there make kettle additions? Also, has anyone determined that kettle additions of gypsum, epsom salt or calcium chloride caused haze issues? Seems to be something there. Cheers.Stout_Fan... when you say "Dearborn", where do you mean? Keep me posted.

I only make additions to the mash for what it's worth.

[Big Nake]

I only make additions to the mash for what it's worth.

That's what I had always done too. I will no longer be making kettle additions based on the results over the past 5 or 6 batches.

[DaBearSox]

I started getting into water chemistry and had some of the problems you did...I reassessed my situation, realized my water changes throughout the year, the spreadsheet would throw me curves and make me scratch my head too much, and it was just too much of a hassle. Took the Avery tour and asked them about additions that they make. The response was well we don't mess with the water much other than monitoring mash pH and adding a little salt here or there for certain styles. Now I just use pH 5.2 buffer in all batches or use distilled water if I want to replicate somewhere else...I figure it's sorta like grain bills, simpler is usually better. As long as I keep pulling a medal here or there I don't think I am going to mess with my water. It makes me wonder though what Two Brothers does. Warrenville didn't want to spend the money to bring in the Lake Michigan water pipes, the city water is full of stuff as apparent by my parents faucets, they just got a new kitchen and the faucet is already crusted with crap. The water also tastes like crap, never noticed it as a kid but when I go back it's hard to get a glass down....I should have asked them when I was there.

[BrewerGeorge]

... The water also tastes like crap, never noticed it as a kid but when I go back it's hard to get a glass down....I should have asked them when I was there.

Off topic, but I know how you feel. My in-laws water is absolutely horrible. It's the only experience I've had in the US where I have been unable to drink tap water. I can't even have their ice in drinks because the water in the ice contaminates the drink. This stuff even screws up spaghetti cooked in it. It is VILE; I can't even describe it. It's so bad that if it wasn't municipal I'd wonder if it was safe to drink.

[Big Nake]

When I went to see a local head brewer at The Ram (about 10 mins from my house), I was standing in the brewery with him and asked him about the water. He said it was Lake Michigan water and that all they did was filter it to remove chlorine. He said, "Otherwise, it's excellent brewing water". At the time, they made a lot of pale ales, ambers, reds, stouts, porters, etc. I went back a few months later and noticed that they had a blonde and a pilsner on the menu and my assumption is that they may have made some adjustments for the lighter beers. In retrospect, I probably jumped on the water additions a little too hard without knowing how the resulting beers would turn out. I just went back and looked at my notes for all of the beers I have in kegs (waiting) and secondary. There are 1 or 2 that seem like they may have the same problem. On the others, I mysteriously went very small on the additions so maybe those will be okay. Cheers guys.Ps. George, where is that vile water? Indiana? When I was in Orlando, I could smell the chlorine from the tap water across the hotel room. We were in the park and I saw a kid ask his mom for a bottle of water and the Mom said, "There's a drinking fountain right there" and the kid said, "I tried it, it's REALLY chloriney!".

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

That's what I had always done too. I will no longer be making kettle additions based on the results over the past 5 or 6 batches.

So will you still add some to the mush tun?

[Big Nake]

So will you still add some to the mush tun?

I have been making additions of CaCl to the mash tun for a long time and I will continue to do that because my water is low on calcium. When I make something like an English Bitter, I will add gypsum to the mash and it's great. What really got me was this chloride-to-sulfate ratio and the fact that my water is already low on sulfate which means it's suitable for "very malty" beers. Calcium Chloride compounds that problem and sends it even further into the very malty range. But my conclusion is that small additions of epsom salt or gypsum could still be made to the mash, although I don't know if I'll do that. The other way to combat it would be with a slightly lower mash temp (see a previous post where I mentioned that I could've been mashing high before I got a THERMAPEN) and possibly just a slightly bigger 60 minute hop addition. Ah, brewing.

[BlKtRe]

So will you still add some to the mush tun?

Mush....The running of the Ken Mush PH..

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Mush....The running of the Ken Mush PH..

it's the mush tun b/c that's where the grains get mushy. duh!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I have been making additions of CaCl to the mash tun for a long time and I will continue to do that because my water is low on calcium. When I make something like an English Bitter, I will add gypsum to the mash and it's great. What really got me was this chloride-to-sulfate ratio and the fact that my water is already low on sulfate which means it's suitable for "very malty" beers. Calcium Chloride compounds that problem and sends it even further into the very malty range. But my conclusion is that small additions of epsom salt or gypsum could still be made to the mash, although I don't know if I'll do that. The other way to combat it would be with a slightly lower mash temp (see a previous post where I mentioned that I could've been mashing high before I got a THERMAPEN) and possibly just a slightly bigger 60 minute hop addition. Ah, brewing.

I generally pick the salt that makes sense for the beer I'm brewing. Occasionally if I want to push things into the "bitter" range I might add some unnecessary (with regards to pH) gypsum to the mash and balance that out with a small amount of chalk. It seems to do the trick for me.ETA: sometimes I need to raise the pH and I want to get into the "bitter" range so I just use gypsum so no unnecessary addition of gypsum is required.

[davelew]

7¼ lbs pilsner malt2 lbs munich 4 oz carafoamWhite Labs 840 American Lager yeastPs. Oh, and this beer is horrendously cloudy too. Looks like a hefeweizen.

Pilsener malt tends to be high in protein, so if the boil isn't vigorous and long enough, you can get chill haze with pilsener malt. Pilsener and 6-row are two of the more finicky malts wrt chill haze, it's annoying that they're used in so many pale beers where the haze is obvious.

[Slainte]

If you're trying to match a certain water profile, you should add the salts to all the water that you use in the brew. You could add the salts to the sparge water, but they have low solubility in pure water, so instead they are added to the boil kettle, where the lower pH allows the salts to dissolve.

Yep. You would also need to add them to the boil kettle if your boil pH is off. A lot of times if your mash pH is good your boil pH will be too, but sometimes minor adjustments are needed.

[BrewerGeorge]

...Ps. George, where is that vile water? Indiana? When I was in Orlando, I could smell the chlorine from the tap water across the hotel room. We were in the park and I saw a kid ask his mom for a bottle of water and the Mom said, "There's a drinking fountain right there" and the kid said, "I tried it, it's REALLY chloriney!".

It's in Danville, IN. It's not chlorine, sulfur or rust, either. It's just awful. Like said, it's hard to describe an organic flavor somewhat like really far-gone autolysis, but not exactly.