76 replies to this topic

[denny]

Stupid batch sparging question: Should I mash in with enough water to get equal volume runnings, ie if I have 1.25 gallons of absorption in the mash and I want 7 gallons of wort I should do the first with 4.75 and the second with 3.5?

I would

Another question: after you add the sparge water for the second runnings and stir it in, should you let it rest and for how long?(I have been letting it sit for 10-15 minutes while i do other stuffs)

There is no advantage to letting it sit at all, assuming conversion is complete at that point. After experimenting with different rest times, I now do no rest at all. Just stir in the water, vorlauf, and run off. But there's also no harm in letting it sit if you need the time to do other things.Cheers,Rich

Edit: I just read Denny's instructions again. I guess I should be only using the amount needed for the mash, and then adding for the first run. I have been adding enough for the first run. How would this affect the beer, if at all assuming the mash temps are right?

Probably not at all.

[SchwanzBrewer]

So currently I am not adding any water to raise the temp of the mash before the first running. All i do is drain and vorlauf with your method. Then in the second running I add the 180 deg water, stir in and then I guess i should drain and vorlauf again. (I only did it this way because I forgot to read your instructions again.) Am I leaving some sugars behind by doing that? I have been ok with the OG so far.If you let it sit for a few minutes, could that help in setting the grain bed in the second running so you get less chance of debris? Cheers,Rich

Edited by rcemech, 24 May 2010 - 12:00 PM.

[djinkc]

.....................If you let it sit for a few minutes, could that help in setting the grain bed in the second running so you get less chance of debris? Cheers,Rich

Vorlaufing takes care of that, drain away.

[MtnBrewer]

Stupid batch sparging question: Should I mash in with enough water to get equal volume runnings, ie if I have 1.25 gallons of absorption in the mash and I want 7 gallons of wort I should do the first with 4.75 and the second with 3.5?

No, mash in to achieve whatever stiffness you want (typically 1.25 to 1.5 qt./lb.). If you want to add more water, do it at the end of the mash (i.e., mash out).

Another question: after you add the sparge water for the second runnings and stir it in, should you let it rest and for how long?(I have been letting it sit for 10-15 minutes while i do other stuffs)

You can if you want but it's not necessary. 10-15 minutes is fine.

Edit: I just read Denny's instructions again. I guess I should be only using the amount needed for the mash, and then adding for the first run. I have been adding enough for the first run. How would this affect the beer, if at all assuming the mash temps are right?

Shouldn't hurt much if anything. The mash will be more dilute so full conversion might take longer than normal. You may also end up with a slightly more fermentable wort.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Shouldn't hurt much if anything. The mash will be more dilute so full conversion might take longer than normal. You may also end up with a slightly more fermentable wort.

More fermentable? Cheers,Rich

[MtnBrewer]

More fermentable?

Correct.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Correct.

Sorry, could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand.Cheers,Rich

[MtnBrewer]

Sorry, could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand.

A thinner mash produces a slightly more fermentable wort because it favors beta amylase over alpha amylase. It's not a huge effect mind you.

[CaptRon]

A thinner mash produces a slightly more fermentable wort because it favors beta amylase over alpha amylase. It's not a huge effect mind you.

Whoa, I thought the fermentability was determined by the temp in which you mashed. I had no idea that thinness or thickness had a play in that either. Great, now something else I need to figure out.

[MtnBrewer]

Whoa, I thought the fermentability was determined by the temp in which you mashed. I had no idea that thinness or thickness had a play in that either. Great, now something else I need to figure out.

The temperature is by far the larger effect. It's actually fairly hard to control fermentability through mash stiffness. That's why I recommend sticking with one mash stiffness for all your beers and control fermentability with temperature.

[djinkc]

John Palmer's How to Brew has a nice explanation. I stick with 1.33/1 and don't worry about it.14.6 Manipulating the Starch Conversion Rest

[denny]

So currently I am not adding any water to raise the temp of the mash before the first running. All i do is drain and vorlauf with your method. Then in the second running I add the 180 deg water, stir in and then I guess i should drain and vorlauf again. (I only did it this way because I forgot to read your instructions again.) Am I leaving some sugars behind by doing that? I have been ok with the OG so far.

You always leave _some_ sugar behind, but it's a case of diminishing returns. I always recall the words of Ken Schwartz, who I learned a lot about batch sparging from, saying "is it really worth the time and effort?". Your method is exactly what I do.

If you let it sit for a few minutes, could that help in setting the grain bed in the second running so you get less chance of debris? Cheers,Rich

I suppose it might, but have you had a problem with that? I never have. I think you have a solution in search of a problem!

[denny]

Whoa, I thought the fermentability was determined by the temp in which you mashed. I had no idea that thinness or thickness had a play in that either. Great, now something else I need to figure out.

Temp, time, and thickness all have a role. Temp is by far the most important, time after that, and way down is thickness. Unless you go to extremes (under 1 qt./lb. or over 2 qt./lb.), I just discount it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I just read through all that in Palmers book. That would explain why my lawnmower beer wasn't as malty. It was kind of thin more watery, I thought it was just the recipe being messed up since I forgot a pound of crystal 60. The people liked it, I didn't. Damn I have a lot to learn yet. I have been making thinner mashes and not getting enough alpha amylase. I can't remember if I did that on the IPA, but I know it was a little thin on the Cream Ale (1.6/1). I'm gonna be pissed if those come out as thin as the lawnmower beer. On the plus side, now I think I understand how to get a maltier character to my brew. Cheers,Rich

Edited by rcemech, 24 May 2010 - 02:01 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

I just read through all that in Palmers book. That would explain why my lawnmower beer wasn't as malty. It was kind of thin more watery, I thought it was just the recipe being messed up since I forgot a pound of crystal 60. The people liked it, I didn't. Damn I have a lot to learn yet. I have been making thinner mashes and not getting enough beta amylase. I can't remember if I did that on the IPA, but I know it was a little thin on the Cream Ale (1.6/1). I'm gonna be pissed if those come out as thin as the lawnmower beer. On the plus side, now I think I understand how to get a maltier character to my brew.

You can't do it with the mash. If you want maltier beer, you have to use maltier malt.

[SchwanzBrewer]

So basically from Denny's instructions, you add the boiling water to raise the bed temp and that stops the conversion while you vorlauf, right?Cheers,Rich

[SchwanzBrewer]

You can't do it with the mash. If you want maltier beer, you have to use maltier malt.

It was supposed to be MLPA but I forgot a pound of crystal, it ended up being a bit watery/not as sweet for some reason. Might be because I didn't get enough alphaamylase going.From How to Brew:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

So if my mash was too thin it wouldn't be as sweet. I'm guessing he is equating sweetness to maltiness. My beer was watery in feel, not very sweet. I probably can't pin it exactly on that because a lot of crap went wrong, but if my cream ale comes out with the same character then I'm guessing its the thinner mash, right?Cheers,RichEdit: I gotta read though this stuff again I think Im confusing myself too.

Edited by rcemech, 24 May 2010 - 02:02 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

So if my mash was too thin it wouldn't be as sweet. I'm guessing he is equating sweetness to maltiness.

Probably but I would argue that they are two different things. One example is altbier. Alts are malty but not sweet.

My beer was watery in feel, not very sweet. I probably can't pin it exactly on that because a lot of crap went wrong, but if my cream ale comes out with the same character then I'm guessing its the thinner mash, right?

That's not the first place I would look unless the mash was very thin and you mashed for an extra long time. More likely you left out an ingredient...like crystal malt for example.

[MtnBrewer]

So basically from Denny's instructions, you add the boiling water to raise the bed temp and that stops the conversion while you vorlauf, right?

More than likely you won't raise the temperature enough to stop conversion.

[denny]

So basically from Denny's instructions, you add the boiling water to raise the bed temp and that stops the conversion while you vorlauf, right?Cheers,Rich

Maybe...you have to get above 170 and hold it for more than 20 min. to denature the enzymes. If you're batch sparging, that's pointless since you get to the boil so quickly compared to fly sparging. I guaran-damn-tee ya that a boil will denature the enzymes!