76 replies to this topic

[denny]

More likely you left out an ingredient...like crystal malt for example.

Occam's Razor!

[SchwanzBrewer]

More than likely you won't raise the temperature enough to stop conversion.

So then why raise the temp with the addition? To get other sugars?Cheers,Rich

[Jimmy James]

So then why raise the temp with the addition? To get other sugars?

a hotter sparge will run off more effectively, all other things being equal.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Occam's Razor!

Yeah, that's absolutely true, but if the IPA and the Cream Ale end up a bit watery, then might I have found the source? but I did adjust the total volume to get the gravity right in the lawnmower beer.Cheers,Rich

Edited by rcemech, 24 May 2010 - 02:45 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

So then why raise the temp with the addition? To get other sugars?

No, to get more sugar. You add the water to balance the volume of water you get from the mash and the volume you get from the sparge. Since you're adding water anyway, you may as well heat it up to lower the viscosity of the wort and improve your efficiency.

[MtnBrewer]

Yeah, that's absolutely true, but if the IPA and the Cream Ale end up a bit watery, then might I have found the source?

You're jumping to conclusions without evidence to support it. You left out a pound of crystal in a recipe and the beer came out watery. There's no reason to believe that this was due to anything other than the missing crystal malt.

[SchwanzBrewer]

You're jumping to conclusions without evidence to support it. You left out a pound of crystal in a recipe and the beer came out watery. There's no reason to believe that this was due to anything other than the missing crystal malt.

I adjusted the recipe once I realized that and collected less wort to get the same OG. Obviously its not gonna come out quite like the original, but it seemed like a drastic change in mouth feel and malt character.I'll update on how the other beers I've made recently come out. I got those recipes right. I'm hoping that they don't have that lack of character is all.Cheers,Rich

[CaptRon]

So basically you made a really light hefe with the wrong yeast and hops?

[MtnBrewer]

I adjusted the recipe once I realized that and collected less wort to get the same OG. Obviously its not gonna come out quite like the original, but it seemed like a drastic change in mouth feel and malt character.

You got the same OG but it's FG that's the problem here.

[SchwanzBrewer]

So basically you made a really light hefe with the wrong yeast and hops?

Huh? I tried to do a 10 gallon batch of MLPA. I ordered double everything supposedly. I forgot 1 lb of crystal 60 and 12 oz of wheat. So it was14.5 # pale ale 1 # crystal 6012 oz wheat2 oz mt hood for 60I ended up with 8 gallons, I think.It wasn't nearly malty enough, was kinda like drinking mich ultra. I know I'm stretching for another problem here, but I'm concerned that a thin mash contributed.

You got the same OG but it's FG that's the problem here.

I never took a final reading. You think it fermented down to 1.005 range instead of 1.012? How would that effect the feel and maltiness? Serious question, I can only guess: If it ferments too low there isn't enough maltose left over to give it that malt character and sweetness, ie it drys out? When I think of dry I think of wine and an actual mouth puckering kind of dryness. This beer was more like water like than dry.I am just looking for anything I can learn here so I can make better beer and know what people are talking about when they describe a beer.Cheers,Rich

[BlKtRe]

You forgot the crystal 60 and wheat out of the recipe. That's why your beer tastes lifeless and thin. Those 2 malts add body, mouth feel, and texture. I find it highly unlikely a thin mash contributed to this.

[SchwanzBrewer]

You forgot the crystal 60 and wheat out of the recipe. That's why your beer tastes lifeless and thin. Those 2 malts add body, mouth feel, and texture. I find it highly unlikely a thin mash contributed to this.

Oddly enough the guys loved it. I just hate it when I see that I have been doing something wrong that could be a problem. I'm gonna read through Denny's site a few more times and HTB and hopefully something will stick so I don't srew up the MLPA next weekend.Cheers,Rich

[djinkc]

I just hate it when I see that I have been doing something wrong that could be a problem. Cheers,Rich

Water/grain for initial infusion is about #99999 on the list of things to worry about. Seriously, forget about it for the time being. As long as you hit your initial mash temps with whatever ratio you use you're golden - that is probably 100x more important. It just isn't very relevant even for the guys on this board that brew 50 gal batches.There's a reason Charlie told us RDWHAHB - this is definitely one of them.

[BrewerGeorge]

I agree with everybody else, rcemech. Mash stiffness is WAY down the list of things that will cause what you experienced in the MLPA. Conversely, a pound of 60 missing from what is already a light-ish beer will make a big difference. I personally adjust mash ratios anywhere from 1.25:1 all the way up to 1.75:1 or so just to even out water additions and make them more even. I've never noticed any difference. Honestly, if there are 100 factors that determine your alpha to beta amylase ratios, 90 of those are temp, 4 are pH, 4 are time, and just 2 are mash thickness. AFAIK, there is still some disagreement between knowledgeable people which direction a thicker mash takes the final FG, too.

[MtnBrewer]

I never took a final reading. You think it fermented down to 1.005 range instead of 1.012?

I don't know what the final gravity was but you described is as thin and dry. So I'm guessing the FG is somewhere below 1.010. Of course that's going to happen if you leave out a pound of C60.

How would that affect the feel and maltiness?

It would be thin and dry but it wouldn't affect the maltiness.

Serious question, I can only guess: If it ferments too low there isn't enough maltose left over to give it that malt character and sweetness, ie it drys out?

That would depend on the fermentation characteristics of the yeast. Malt character comes from the malt, not fermentation, not the mash. You're looking at all sorts of obscure things like mash stiffness and fermentation as the culprit but you're ignoring the huge elephant sitting in the middle of the room: the lack of a whole pound of C60 in the recipe.

When I think of dry I think of wine and an actual mouth puckering kind of dryness. This beer was more like water like than dry.I am just looking for anything I can learn here so I can make better beer and know what people are talking about when they describe a beer.

Ok, then let's fix some terminology issues so that we can all understand each other better.Dry is not the puckery sensation of a young red wine. That's astringent or tannic. Dry is just the absence of sweetness. Dry means low FG.Malty is the flavor of malt. Munich is more malty than Maris Otter. Maris Otter is more malty than pilsner malt. Maltiness can be obscured by hops or enhanced by sweetness. But malty is not sweet. Again use the example of altbier, which is malty but dry. A Munich or Vienna lager is malty and somewhat sweet. A Scotch ale is malty and very sweet. An American lager is neither malty nor sweet.Mouthfeel is the sensation of the weight and viscosity of the beer in your mouth. Usually mouthfeel and sweetness go hand-in-hand because it's sugar that gives it both the viscosity and gravity. The sweeter a beer is, generally the more mouthfeel it has. This also means that the FG is higher. People also talk about body. Full-bodied == lots of mouthfeel; thin-bodied == little mouthfeel.So what you ended up with was dry and thin-bodied, which is exactly what you would expect if you left out a pound of crystal malt.

[BlKtRe]

Oddly enough the guys loved it.

Most, check that, all BMC drinkers like thin, lifeless beers. That's great you found a crowd that enjoyed your beer. That's a awesome feeling for sure. So congrats to that. But as others have pointed out you are not seeing the big picture here. I highly suggest going back and read what each malt brings to the table in the finished product. Once you understand that, recipe formulation for different styles will roll of your tongue.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I don't know what the final gravity was but you described is as thin and dry. So I'm guessing the FG is somewhere below 1.010. Of course that's going to happen if you leave out a pound of C60. It would be thin and dry but it wouldn't affect the maltiness.That would depend on the fermentation characteristics of the yeast. Malt character comes from the malt, not fermentation, not the mash. You're looking at all sorts of obscure things like mash stiffness and fermentation as the culprit but you're ignoring the huge elephant sitting in the middle of the room: the lack of a whole pound of C60 in the recipe.Ok, then let's fix some terminology issues so that we can all understand each other better.Dry is not the puckery sensation of a young red wine. That's astringent or tannic. Dry is just the absence of sweetness. Dry means low FG.Malty is the flavor of malt. Munich is more malty than Maris Otter. Maris Otter is more malty than pilsner malt. Maltiness can be obscured by hops or enhanced by sweetness. But malty is not sweet. Again use the example of altbier, which is malty but dry. A Munich or Vienna lager is malty and somewhat sweet. A Scotch ale is malty and very sweet. An American lager is neither malty nor sweet.Mouthfeel is the sensation of the weight and viscosity of the beer in your mouth. Usually mouthfeel and sweetness go hand-in-hand because it's sugar that gives it both the viscosity and gravity. The sweeter a beer is, generally the more mouthfeel it has. This also means that the FG is higher. People also talk about body. Full-bodied == lots of mouthfeel; thin-bodied == little mouthfeel.So what you ended up with was dry and thin-bodied, which is exactly what you would expect if you left out a pound of crystal malt.

Thanks, that is a big help in understanding. It tough sometimes to be descriptive an think along the same lines when your not speaking the same language. I understand that missing the ingredient is a huge factor, but if I did the mash wrong and ended up too thin then, and created a more fermentable wort, that would compound the problem. Basically what i am looking for is when my IPA is finished (which I know I got the grain bill right on), if it is too dry then I might be able to pin point the mash as a problem since I have done it the same way for the last 3 batches. Based on what you and Denny have said though, I need a grist upward of 2qts/lb to even have that problem. I don't recall what it was for the IPA, but I will be on the lookout anyway.

Most, check that, all BMC drinkers like thin, lifeless beers. That's great you found a crowd that enjoyed your beer. That's a awesome feeling for sure. So congrats to that. But as others have pointed out you are not seeing the big picture here. I highly suggest going back and read what each malt brings to the table in the finished product. Once you understand that, recipe formulation for different styles will roll of your tongue.

I don't think that's anything to be congratulated on, I never felt good about it, kinda felt like I was cheating.I know there are some good sources to figure out what malts do what to beer, but there is only so much that paper can convey. I think mostly I need to brew more and have something to compare against to those descriptions.Thanks for the help and advice guys!Cheers,Rich

[Stout_fan]

... Once you understand that, recipe formulation for different styles will roll of your tongue.

And you sir, can be my coach for when I retake the BJCP exam.

[BlKtRe]

And you sir, can be my coach for when I retake the BJCP exam.

Actually I couldn't. I think there is a difference in knowing what malts work in any given style, but im not so good at rolling off my tongue the exact percentages of said malts....

[SchwanzBrewer]

Actually I couldn't. I think there is a difference in knowing what malts work in any given style, but im not so good at rolling off my tongue the exact percentages of said malts....

That sounds dirty... Cheers,Rich