49 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

So I have some wyeast 2308 hanging around that I thought to myself, self, what else could I make other than an Oktoberfest with this yeast so I took a gander at the Wyeast website and the Munich Dunkel sounds like the beer for me. I won't be doing a decoction so it seems like I might need to add in some caramunich or something similar. My first thought is to use Munich for the majority of my base. A little bit of carafa III (I actually have debittered black) seems to fit the bill as well. For hops it will probably be either just Hallertau MF or a combination of Hallertau MF with German Magnum. The flavor additions will be kept to a minimum and I may consider doing a FWH. So I'm going to work on the recipe tonight but before I get started I thought I would let you guys throw some ideas against the wall and we'll see what sticks

[Rick]

My favorite lager! I like to go all Munich Malt and some Carafa Special II mashed at 154-156 ºF for 60 minutes. 60 minute boil. Bittered to 20 IBU with a 60 minute addition then a 0.5 oz addition at 20 minutes giving about 25 IBUs total. I go with either Mt. Hood or Liberty. Then for yeast, Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager at 50-52 ºF for 3 weeks. Lager for another 3 or 4 weeks.

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.014
Color: 20
Alcohol: 5.2%
Bitterness: 23.5 IBU

Grain Bill:
12.5 lb (5.65 kg) Munich TYPE I
0.5 lb (225 kg) Carafa Special® TYPE II

Hops:
1.00 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) 60 min
0.50 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) 20 min

Yeast:
2.5 packs WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

I love the idea of FWH on this beer. I might try that out myself next time. I'll just throw all 1.50 oz of the Mt. Hoods in the kettle. MMMM. Let us know what you go with buddy.

Rick

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

My favorite lager! I like to go all Munich Malt and some Carafa Special II mashed at 154-156 ºF for 60 minutes. 60 minute boil. Bittered to 20 IBU with a 60 minute addition then a 0.5 oz addition at 20 minutes giving about 25 IBUs total. I go with either Mt. Hood or Liberty. Then for yeast, Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager at 50-52 ºF for 3 weeks. Lager for another 3 or 4 weeks.

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.014
Color: 20
Alcohol: 5.2%
Bitterness: 23.5 IBU

Grain Bill:
12.5 lb (5.65 kg) Munich TYPE I
0.5 lb (225 kg) Carafa Special® TYPE II

Hops:
1.00 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) 60 min
0.50 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) 20 min

Yeast:
2.5 packs WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

I love the idea of FWH on this beer. I might try that out myself next time. I'll just throw all 1.50 oz of the Mt. Hoods in the kettle. MMMM. Let us know what you go with buddy.

Rick

So just munich and something to darken it up? I'm guessing the debittered black has a higher L value than carafa II so I'd probably want to use less than 0.5lb. Are you getting any flavor from the carafa II? I was also considering putting in a little bit of carapils in this beer.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

So I got a little busy and didn't get to this last night. Still up for suggestions and ideas

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Alright - tell me if I'm way off here (5 gallon batch):GRAINS:9lbs Munich Malt (7L)0.25lbs Debittered Black (412L)0.5lbs Carapils (2L)0.25lbs Caramunich (47L)Mash around 154F for 60 minsHOPS:0.5oz Hallertau MF - FWH0.5oz German Magnum - 60 min0.5oz Hallertau MF - 15 minYEAST:Wyeast Munich Lager (2308)SPECS:SRM: 17.5OG: 1.051IBU: 25.6 (perceived, FWH addition calculated like a 20 min addition)I'm a little unsure about the caramunich but I didn't want to go any higher on the debittered black yet I wanted to darken this thing up a little more. Is the carapils appropriate here? I figured it probably was. Am I hopping this up too much?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

no more dunkel advice? is this not a popular beer?

[Rick]

Zym,I don't get any flavor from that Carafa Special II. A mild caramel flavor is acceptable in a Munich Dunkel, so I would not go any higher on that Caramunich. If you decide to go the no crystal malt route, you will have to up the Debittered Black to get your color. I don't like to use CaraPils (I believe in controlling your dextrines with your mash temp), so I would drop it. Your mash temp of 154ºF will give you enough dextrines for mouthfeel and body. As for the hops go, I would drop the 15 min addition. I think adding those plus the FWH will give you too much hop flavor and aroma for style.Let us know how it turns out! Like I said Munich Dunkel is probably my favorite lager style.Rick

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Zym, I don't get any flavor from that Carafa Special II. A mild caramel flavor is acceptable in a Munich Dunkel, so I would not go any higher on that Caramunich. If you decide to go the no crystal malt route, you will have to up the Debittered Black to get your color. As for the hops go, I would drop the 15 min addition. I think adding those plus the FWH will give you too much hop flavor and aroma for style. Let us know how it turns out! Like I said Munich Dunkel is probably my favorite lager style. Rick

My question on the debittered black is going above 0.25lbs pushing it? I just don't want to get too much of a roasted flavor. I have not used debittered black before (I have used carafa III which is supposed to pretty much be the same thing). should I up the FWH at all if I drop the 15 min addition? I have to admit I'm so used to fairly heavily hopped beers it scares me when I'm hopping a beer this little

[Slainte]

Mmmm...Munich Dunkel is one of my favorite lager styles. I think it's about time for me to brew one too.

Personally, I think crystal malts (caramunich and carapils) are best left out in Munich Dunkels...too much caramel flavor will make it seem like a bock. Munich and some debittered roasted malt are all you need. I've never used the debittered black, but I've used the dehusked carafa a bunch of times and it doesn't really give a roasted flavor with the quantity needed in this beer.

Looking at your grain bill and mash temperature, it seems to me that this might finish out a little too high. Using darker kilned malts for the base of your beer will raise the FG as opposed to using something like pilsner malt for example...all else being equal. If you keep the caramunich and carapils, I would lower the mash temperature some.

As for the hopping, Munich Dunkel is a style with very minimal flavor/aroma hops, if any at all. If it were me, I wouldn't add any flavor/aroma hops, and only use a 60 minute addition. But if you really want some hop flavor in this you can probably keep the 15 min or FWH. If you go this route, you might want to increase the 60 min to account for the loss in IBUs from removing the FWH or 15. When doing this, keep in mind the bittering level and balance of this beer should be tilted slightly towards maltiness (emphasis on slightly). You have ~25 IBUS listed, that's probably a good bittering target regardless of your hopping schedule.

Good luck man, and be sure to let us know what you decide to go with, and how the beer turns out.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Mmmm...Munich Dunkel is one of my favorite lager styles. I think it's about time for me to brew one too.

Personally, I think crystal malts (caramunich and carapils) are best left out in Munich Dunkels...too much caramel flavor will make it seem like a bock. Munich and some debittered roasted malt are all you need. I've never used the debittered black, but I've used the dehusked carafa a bunch of times and it doesn't really give a roasted flavor with the quantity needed in this beer.

Looking at your grain bill and mash temperature, it seems to me that this might finish out a little too high. Using darker kilned malts for the base of your beer will raise the FG as opposed to using something like pilsner malt for example...all else being equal. If you keep the caramunich and carapils, I would lower the mash temperature some.

As for the hopping, Munich Dunkel is a style with very minimal flavor/aroma hops, if any at all. If it were me, I wouldn't add any flavor/aroma hops, and only use a 60 minute addition. But if you really want some hop flavor in this you can probably keep the 15 min or FWH. If you go this route, you might want to increase the 60 min to account for the loss in IBUs from removing the FWH or 15. When doing this, keep in mind the bittering level and balance of this beer should be tilted slightly towards maltiness (emphasis on slightly). You have ~25 IBUS listed, that's probably a good bittering target regardless of your hopping schedule.

Good luck man, and be sure to let us know what you decide to go with, and how the beer turns out.

So I lowered the mash temp a little and removed all of the caramunich and some of the carapils. Does that seem like a better balance with regards to FG?

GRAINS:
10lbs Munich Malt (7L)(added a pound)
~0.5lbs Debittered Black (412L) (whatever it takes to get the color up, might be a little less)
0.25lbs Carapils (2L) (lowered)
(removed caramunich)

Mash around 153F for 60 mins (lowered mash temp by a degree)

HOPS:
0.5oz Hallertau MF - FWH
0.5oz German Magnum - 60 min (might add a little more magnum if IBUs are too low)
(removed 15 min Hallertau MF addition)

YEAST:
Wyeast Munich Lager (2308)

[Rick]

@Zym: The new recipe looks great. Brew it up and let us know how it turns out! Debittered malts do not lend any roasted flavors at these levels. Also, if you are worried about adding any roast flavors, throw in your debittered black at the end of the mash just before sparge. But I wouldn't worry!@Slainte: Good suggestions! It looks like you are on the same page as I am with this great lager. What's your personal favorite recipe?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

4 oz of debittered black is plenty. If you can, grind it up very fine in a coffee grinder. Like Rick said, add it at the end of the mash before recirc. I used 2 oz carafa special III this way in an alt and it came out very deep copper. I think with half a pound, you will get some flavor that you don't want in this beer.I'd ditch the carapils. IMO.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

@Zym: The new recipe looks great. Brew it up and let us know how it turns out! Debittered malts do not lend any roasted flavors at these levels. Also, if you are worried about adding any roast flavors, throw in your debittered black at the end of the mash just before sparge. But I wouldn't worry! @Slainte: Good suggestions! It looks like you are on the same page as I am with this great lager. What's your personal favorite recipe?

So I think I'm pretty set here other than the mash temp. Is 153F too high? Too low?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

4 oz of debittered black is plenty. If you can, grind it up very fine in a coffee grinder. Like Rick said, add it at the end of the mash before recirc. I used 2 oz carafa special III this way in an alt and it came out very deep copper. I think with half a pound, you will get some flavor that you don't want in this beer. I'd ditch the carapils. IMO.

are you sure about the flavor? the other guys in the thread here seems to think it won't... what's wrong with the carapils? plenty of body is the norm for this beer I believe.

[Slainte]

@Slainte: Good suggestions! It looks like you are on the same page as I am with this great lager. What's your personal favorite recipe?

I don't have my notes in front of me, but generally all Munich for the base (Weyermann Munich Type II is my favorite), and dehusked carafa special II or III to color it up to about 22 SRM. Mash around 152-153. I shoot for an OG of about 1.050-1.052, and bitter with Hallertauer Mittelfruh to about 24-25 IBUs for a BU:GU ratio of 0.5. Any German lager yeast, usually wlp833 or wyeast 2124(wlp830, weihenstephan 34/70). I like to pitch around 45 F, and let it rise to about 48 F over the first day or so of fermentation. I hold it there till the end, and depending on the yeast I may do a diacetyl rest. Although with wlp833, I've never needed one. I have not used 2308 before, that's one I've been meaning to try out. @Zym, looks good to me!

[Slainte]

I think with half a pound, you will get some flavor that you don't want in this beer.

Have you ever used that kind of quantity in a beer before? I've never gotten any roasty, bitter, or harsh flavors from carafa special before... Zym, if you're worried, you could always color it up with some Sinamar. It's made from carafa special and designed to color up beers without imparting flavor. Or you could throw the carafa in the sparge like Rick said. Although I don't bother with any of that. I just mash everything together.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Have you ever used that kind of quantity in a beer before? I've never gotten any roasty, bitter, or harsh flavors from carafa special before... Zym, if you're worried, you could always color it up with some Sinamar. It's made from carafa special and designed to color up beers without imparting flavor. Or you could throw the carafa in the sparge like Rick said. Although I don't bother with any of that. I just mash everything together.

I'm looking to use what I've got for supplies so I'm going to risk it with the debittered black. I probably won't have to use 1/2lb anyway and I can always let the color slip a little bit towards the lighter end of the spectrum for this style. It won't affect the taste very much.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

First, I think 1/2 a pound of debittered black will put you out of style for color. Second, it may be debittered, but its still going to have some flavor. At half a pound in a 5 gallon batch that is otherwise all munich, IMO you are going to get some flavor coming through. I have made a munic dunkel with 1/2 light and 1/2 dark munich. It came out very nice and the color was on the low side, but within style.I don't think you need carapils because there will be enough body from all the munich. You can add it, but I don't think its needed. My personal philosophy in brewing German beers is to use as few malts as possible. I feel its more authentic that way. Just what I like to do.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

First, I think 1/2 a pound of debittered black will put you out of style for color. Second, it may be debittered, but its still going to have some flavor. At half a pound in a 5 gallon batch that is otherwise all munich, IMO you are going to get some flavor coming through. I have made a munic dunkel with 1/2 light and 1/2 dark munich. It came out very nice and the color was on the low side, but within style. I don't think you need carapils because there will be enough body from all the munich. You can add it, but I don't think its needed. My personal philosophy in brewing German beers is to use as few malts as possible. I feel its more authentic that way. Just what I like to do.

I haven't entered a half pound into my spreadsheet yet but I'll be sure to not add so much that it will be too dark. I'm using the average lovibond rating from Austin Homebrew in my spreadsheet. I ended up with a free 19lbs of carapils and it's oh so tempting to use

[Slainte]

First, I think 1/2 a pound of debittered black will put you out of style for color. Second, it may be debittered, but its still going to have some flavor.

Have you ever used that kind of quantity in a beer before? I put Zym's recipe in promash using the color levels he provided, and it gives me around 23 SRM, which is well within the acceptable range for this style. Sure it's going to have some flavor, any malt you add to the beer is going to have that. But it won't give you significant roasty or bitter flavors, which is why these types of malts are so commonly used in dunkels, schwarzbiers, and generally any beer you want to color without contributing roasty flavors.