517 replies to this topic

[denny]

Never heard it had to be kept cold.

AFAIK it doesn't.

[neddles]

I've had similar issues with brewery growlers, though more so the day after they have been opened. The immediate changes I have often blamed on the reduced carbonation. But I wanted to point out some different experiences I've had with my own beer. It's just an example of how we might arrive at different conclusions based on anecdotal evidence, which the human mind is wired to give more weight that it is due, especially when there is expectancy bias.

Completely agree. Single anecdotes should always be taken with a fat grain of salt, especially with something so devoid of objectivity as tasting beer. Mine are no exception. And while they're the best we've got to go on, I keep a healthy dose of skepticism about several of the exbeeriments being conducted as well. In the meantime though I have to live in my own head for better or worse and when I taste a difference I taste a difference, real or imagined.

[Steve Urquell]

I would have bet you $1000 that I was tasting better beer after using BT until I tasted the same recipes with/without it side by side. Confirmation bias is real and it had me fooled.

I wish everyone would do side by sides tasted blind before making statements about how this stuff works. I'm not saying it doesn't do anything for everyone because everyone brews differently. It just didn't do anything for my beer and I thought I was tasting things I wasnt until blind tasting.

[Big Nake]

I would have bet you $1000 that I was tasting better beer after using BT until I tasted the same recipes with/without it side by side. Confirmation bias is real and it had me fooled.

I wish everyone would do side by sides tasted blind before making statements about how this stuff works. I'm not saying it doesn't do anything for everyone because everyone brews differently. It just didn't do anything for my beer and I thought I was tasting things I wasnt until blind tasting.

I think this is the key and I've been curious about it since the start. If you compared my caveman-like brewing practices (no office to Chris the Cavman ) to someone who had a better setup than mine where oxidation would naturally be kept to a minimum (or lower at least), or someone's water had a higher level of metals in it, etc. you might conclude that brewtan will make a bigger difference for some brewers than it will for others. I'm going on the following premise: My beers seem better with it. My beers are clearer than ever. Brewtan may allow beers to have a longer shelf life. My beers are definitely not worse because of brewtan. Using brewtan is easy. The only real drawback to it is that it's tough to get. I bought two 50g bags of it and I'm about ¾ of the way through the first bag so I won't need any for a long time. Hopefully at that point it will be available in the US. I plan to keep using it.

[denny]

I would have bet you $1000 that I was tasting better beer after using BT until I tasted the same recipes with/without it side by side. Confirmation bias is real and it had me fooled.

I wish everyone would do side by sides tasted blind before making statements about how this stuff works. I'm not saying it doesn't do anything for everyone because everyone brews differently. It just didn't do anything for my beer and I thought I was tasting things I wasnt until blind tasting.

 

We have 7-10 brewers who will be holding blind tasting.  We hope to have 50-100 results.

[neddles]

There's no denying confirmation bias is very real. Does it matter though? If I really wanted to achieve the level of objectivity required for broad sweeping claims about what it will do to people's beers I would need far more than a single unreplicated side by side on one beer from one recipe in one brewery. In my brewing I am not interested in that level of control and experimentation, at all. Ultimately drinking beer is a subjective experience for me and can be different everytime I pour a glass. If I claim the sugar pill relived my pain then it relived my pain. End of story. The trouble comes when I claim the sugar pill will relive your pain too. I am certainly not making any claims about what brewtan will do for someone else's beer. If they want to infer that from one guy's opinion on the internet that is on them. Im just relaying my own experiences which as noted above should be taken with a fat grain of salt.

[positiveContact]

5-25°C implies that it shouldn't be frozen. Instead it can be stored anywhere from fridge temperature to 77°F and be good for 5 years, if kept dry.

 

problem is my fridge is set to 3.3C

[denny]

There's no denying confirmation bias is very real. Does it matter though? If I really wanted to achieve the level of objectivity required for broad sweeping claims about what it will do to people's beers I would need far more than a single unreplicated side by side on one beer from one recipe in one brewery. In my brewing I am not interested in that level of control and experimentation, at all. Ultimately drinking beer is a subjective experience for me and can be different everytime I pour a glass. If I claim the sugar pill relived my pain then it relived my pain. End of story. The trouble comes when I claim the sugar pill will relive your pain too. I am certainly not making any claims about what brewtan will do for someone else's beer. If they want to infer that from one guy's opinion on the internet that is on them. Im just relaying my own experiences which as noted above should be taken with a fat grain of salt.

 

which is why we have so many brewers doing so many tests.  For your own use, I agree with you....use your confirmation bias.  I'm trying to get closer to an objective assessment and use that to convince people to bring it in to the US.  Replication is the key to science.  One experiment is a data point, many experiments reaching the same conclusion gives you an answer.

[neddles]

I agree Denny. But I think you just revealed an experimenter bias.

[denny]

I agree Denny. But I think you just revealed an experimenter bias.

 

???

[neddles]

I interpreted your above statement to mean that you were desiring one outcome over another. That is experimenter bias. I am operating on the assumption that no one is going to bring the product to the US if there is no observed difference or benefit. I could be reading you wrong though so feel free to clarify.

I should also mention that I'm not actually concerned about experimenter bias having a significant impact on the results. I just thought it was ironic/funny.

[denny]

I interpreted your above statement to mean that you were desiring one outcome over another. That is experimenter bias. I am operating on the assumption that no one is going to bring the product to the US if there is no observed difference or benefit. I could be reading you wrong though so feel free to clarify.

I should also mention that I'm not actually concerned about experimenter bias having a significant impact on the results. I just thought it was ironic/funny.

 

Absolutely not.  I want the unvarnished results.  My point was that a number of brewers each using a number of testers has more chance of producing a valid result than simply using one brewer.

[Big Nake]

I think I have concluded that the taste buds are a very unreliable bunch... at least mine. They occasionally throw curveballs at me but of course my palate is not that of a BJCP judge. When you take A LOT of people and even MORE taste buds and then mix in everyone's opinion about which beer is better (BT vs. non-BT), I am convinced (in a similar way to neddles) that the only opinion that counts is mine. I do think Denny's team of experimenters will reach a conclusion but I'm not sure how overwhelming it will be based on all of the above variables. That will leave each brewer to decide for himself to keep using it, try using it, stop using it, never use it, etc. Maybe at some point I'll make my helles again without BT just to see how it is. Not sure if that will push me in either direction but it couldn't hurt.

[denny]

I think I have concluded that the taste buds are a very unreliable bunch... at least mine. They occasionally throw curveballs at me but of course my palate is not that of a BJCP judge. When you take A LOT of people and even MORE taste buds and then mix in everyone's opinion about which beer is better (BT vs. non-BT), I am convinced (in a similar way to neddles) that the only opinion that counts is mine. I do think Denny's team of experimenters will reach a conclusion but I'm not sure how overwhelming it will be based on all of the above variables. That will leave each brewer to decide for himself to keep using it, try using it, stop using it, never use it, etc. Maybe at some point I'll make my helles again without BT just to see how it is. Not sure if that will push me in either direction but it couldn't hurt.

 

I completely agree, but tastebuds are all we've got.

[positiveContact]

I completely agree, but tastebuds are all we've got.

 

my tastebuds make the call every time!  

[Steve Urquell]

We have 7-10 brewers who will be holding blind tasting. We hope to have 50-100 results.

I look forward to the results. I did 2 lagers and neither showed any difference tasted blindly.

I really want people to avoid doing with BT what the German brewing forum did with LODO. My eyes were opened when doing side by sides blindly.

[Big Nake]

I look forward to the results. I did 2 lagers and neither showed any difference tasted blindly.

I really want people to avoid doing with BT what the German brewing forum did with LODO. My eyes were opened when doing side by sides blindly.

But again... what if one brewer sees benefits from using BT where others do not because of process or water? You're making it sound like it's the same across the board and maybe it is... but we don't really know that. Where you may see no benefit, someone else may see a lot.

[Steve Urquell]

But again... what if one brewer sees benefits from using BT where others do not because of process or water? You're making it sound like it's the same across the board and maybe it is... but we don't really know that. Where you may see no benefit, someone else may see a lot.

I fully agree with your statement. If I sounded like I didnt think it worked for anyone I did not intend to nor do I not believe that people are really seeing a difference.

What I want people to do is taste side by sides blindly with and without BT before saying that it made a difference.

You cannot objectively say that its making a difference otherwise. I proved that to myself. I thought my BT German pils tasted smoother and had a hint of caramel that I had never noticed before. Then I tasted it it side by side with the non BT batch and could not tell a difference.

[Big Nake]

I fully agree with your statement. If I sounded like I didnt think it worked for anyone I did not intend to nor do I not believe that people are really seeing a difference.

What I want people to do is taste side by sides blindly with and without BT before saying that it made a difference.

You cannot objectively say that its making a difference otherwise. I proved that to myself. I thought my BT German pils tasted smoother and had a hint of caramel that I had never noticed before. Then I tasted it it side by side with the non BT batch and could not tell a difference.

I would have to see well-detailed notes on your side-by-side taste test. For example, did you eat saltines or ritz crackers between samples? Did you clean and rinse your palate before and after the samples? I'm fecking with you Chils. I don't pretend to know and I don't have any desire to try to convince anyone of anything with regard to BT. I like neddles' mention of the old(ish) growler that maintained it's freshness when [in his experience] that normally would not happen. That tells me that something could be happening with O2 pickup because you ordinarily hear that beer that is aged for any amount of time will fall victim to oxidation. Maybe the growler sample needed to be 2 years old before we concluded anything.

[Steve Urquell]

I would have to see well-detailed notes on your side-by-side taste test. For example, did you eat saltines or ritz crackers between samples? Did you clean and rinse your palate before and after the samples? I'm fecking with you Chils. I don't pretend to know and I don't have any desire to try to convince anyone of anything with regard to BT. I like neddles' mention of the old(ish) growler that maintained it's freshness when [in his experience] that normally would not happen. That tells me that something could be happening with O2 pickup because you ordinarily hear that beer that is aged for any amount of time will fall victim to oxidation. Maybe the growler sample needed to be 2 years old before we concluded anything.

Saltines, 5 different tastings with each of 2 diff batches over 3-4 months, boxer briefs. Cock punched by wife between swigs.

Really though I bought my own confirmation bias here and it really made me realize I've made a bunch of anecdotal statements over the years that may or may not have been correct. The LODO crap was particularly irritating and drove it home to me that I need to do a little more testing/tasting before making claims.

Will I always make side by side batches when doing something new? No. I'm too lazy for that. I really expectex BT to do something for me. It didn't. That's why I went to the trouble of doing another batch to make sure.

If it works for others it is really gonna make me wonder if I'm brewing such bad beer that it cannot be saved lol.