313 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

grain dust in the wind... all we are is grain dust in the wind....

[Big Nake]

Apparently there is some debate over whether the character is fleeting or not. Sounds like the better you control O2, the longer the character will be around. They mentioned kegs of helles still having the great character after months of being in a keg. But they're saying that it's very fragile and some amount of O2 in the equation will scrub out what you want to keep. So I don't really know how much work it would take to try this but I do know that I'm not really set up for this kind of brewing. I feel like a lot of my controls are good but exposure to O2 is not really under any kind of control at all.

[cavman]

Speaking of no-sparge, where's Brauer? I thought this topic might bring him out of the woodwork.

I figured the same, I will send him a text.

[denny]

Interestingly, Drew, Marshall and I have all received private emails from the group...

[positiveContact]

Interestingly, Drew, Marshall and I have all received private emails from the group...

 

regarding what?

Rodney on HSA on the podcast! 

[denny]

regarding what?

Rodney on HSA on the podcast! 

 

Yeah, HIS beers sure suck! 

 

They want to discuss things with us.

[positiveContact]

Yeah, HIS beers sure suck! 

 

it's easy enough to justify.  here, I'll play the role:

 

he's not making German lagers

judges don't know what German lagers should taste like

the judges don't have enough of that sweet Aryan/German DNA that allows you to taste "it"

shitty palates (one of my favs )

[denny]

it's easy enough to justify.  here, I'll play the role:

 

he's not making German lagers

judges don't know what German lagers should taste like

the judges don't have enough of that sweet Aryan/German DNA that allows you to taste "it"

shitty palates (one of my favs )

 

yes he is, with many BOS

prove it

sure, that's gotta be it

oh, yeah, Kris England used that one continually about my decoction experiment, so it's GOTTA be right!

 

[positiveContact]

I almost forgot I was in character for a minute there.

[Big Nake]

Interestingly, Drew, Marshall and I have all received private emails from the group...

Marshall posted over there asking for data. He said that he sees an "exbeeriment" in the future but that he wanted to see the data. So my guess is that you will see some of this naysaying, etc. until people see it for themselves. I guess I would ask the naysayers... why do you think that these guys would do this and then conclude this if it weren't true? I don't see them attempting to benefit from it or sway anyone's opinion. I could see someone like Marshall (who likes to tinker and look at specific data) saying, "Where's the data?" but otherwise I think I would either consider it as an option or something to experiment with or look at everything that needs to be done to prepare for a batch like this, determine that it's not your cup of tea and choose not to do it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Marshall posted over there asking for data. He said that he sees an "exbeeriment" in the future but that he wanted to see the data. So my guess is that you will see some of this naysaying, etc. until people see it for themselves. I guess I would ask the naysayers... why do you think that these guys would do this and then conclude this if it weren't true? I don't see them attempting to benefit from it or sway anyone's opinion. I could see someone like Marshall (who likes to tinker and look at specific data) saying, "Where's the data?" but otherwise I think I would either consider it as an option or something to experiment with or look at everything that needs to be done to prepare for a batch like this, determine that it's not your cup of tea and choose not to do it.

 

Again, confirmation bias. You worked so damn hard on something so it's got to be good. I'm (most of us probably) not saying they aren't right, I'm just saying that they need to confirm their findings with some independent testing.

 

Any information on brewing better beer is beneficial to the whole so long as it's verified to be accurate. 

[positiveContact]

Marshall posted over there asking for data. He said that he sees an "exbeeriment" in the future but that he wanted to see the data. So my guess is that you will see some of this naysaying, etc. until people see it for themselves. I guess I would ask the naysayers... why do you think that these guys would do this and then conclude this if it weren't true? I don't see them attempting to benefit from it or sway anyone's opinion. I could see someone like Marshall (who likes to tinker and look at specific data) saying, "Where's the data?" but otherwise I think I would either consider it as an option or something to experiment with or look at everything that needs to be done to prepare for a batch like this, determine that it's not your cup of tea and choose not to do it.

 

 

I'm not going to attempt to figure out the mindset of a group that as far as I know have kept things sort of secret up to this point.  it would be purely speculation.  I don't think they are trying to mislead anyone on purpose if that's what you were saying.  As Schwanz said, it's easy to fool yourself on something like taste perception without good testing methodology.

 

if they were saying they thought these things might improve the beer that's fine but they are stating it as fact.  I would hate for a german lager noob to read that and just throw their hands and say it's not worth even trying.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 26 April 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[denny]

Marshall posted over there asking for data. He said that he sees an "exbeeriment" in the future but that he wanted to see the data. So my guess is that you will see some of this naysaying, etc. until people see it for themselves. I guess I would ask the naysayers... why do you think that these guys would do this and then conclude this if it weren't true? I don't see them attempting to benefit from it or sway anyone's opinion. I could see someone like Marshall (who likes to tinker and look at specific data) saying, "Where's the data?" but otherwise I think I would either consider it as an option or something to experiment with or look at everything that needs to be done to prepare for a batch like this, determine that it's not your cup of tea and choose not to do it.

 

Ken, I don't think anybody is necessarily saying it isn't true....my point is show me that it is true.  And that's all I'm gonna say unless it's in a PM.

[Big Nake]

Well, without flying over to someone's house and trying one of the beers made this way, I don't see how you could be shown that it's true. I have no idea if this low-O2 process makes a difference or not but I'm open-minded and I don't necessarily need these guys to prove it to me. They say it works so it could be worth one batch of low-O2 beer to see if my tastebuds tell me that a beer I make a lot is better with the new procedures in place. I guess I'm envisioning people saying that the world is round. If I see a way to attempt this that doesn't require $500 and an entire weekend, I'll probably see if there is any truth to it. That alone would be better than any proof they could provide.

[denny]

Well, without flying over to someone's house and trying one of the beers made this way, I don't see how you could be shown that it's true. I have no idea if this low-O2 process makes a difference or not but I'm open-minded and I don't necessarily need these guys to prove it to me. They say it works so it could be worth one batch of low-O2 beer to see if my tastebuds tell me that a beer I make a lot is better with the new procedures in place. I guess I'm envisioning people saying that the world is round. If I see a way to attempt this that doesn't require $500 and an entire weekend, I'll probably see if there is any truth to it. That alone would be better than any proof they could provide.

 

But then unless you set up a tasting panel, you could be subject to the same confirmation bias that it's possible they have.  Marshall offered to help them do a controlled, documented experiment.  I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes.  Also, in terms of replicating it yourself, do you think one batch would be enough to fully grok the techniques and master them?  Part of what people seem to be skeptical of is the complication of the process and that you have to exactly nail every bit of it in order to be successful.  I know that would take me a few tries at least.

[positiveContact]

Well, without flying over to someone's house and trying one of the beers made this way, I don't see how you could be shown that it's true. I have no idea if this low-O2 process makes a difference or not but I'm open-minded and I don't necessarily need these guys to prove it to me. They say it works so it could be worth one batch of low-O2 beer to see if my tastebuds tell me that a beer I make a lot is better with the new procedures in place. I guess I'm envisioning people saying that the world is round. If I see a way to attempt this that doesn't require $500 and an entire weekend, I'll probably see if there is any truth to it. That alone would be better than any proof they could provide.

 

I haven't been asking to taste the beers (although I'm available for tasting ).  As has been said - do a triangle test and see if people can detect a difference.  that wouldn't "prove" it but it would at least make a case for where the truth likely lies.

[Big Nake]

But then unless you set up a tasting panel, you could be subject to the same confirmation bias that it's possible they have.  Marshall offered to help them do a controlled, documented experiment.  I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes.  Also, in terms of replicating it yourself, do you think one batch would be enough to fully grok the techniques and master them?  Part of what people seem to be skeptical of is the complication of the process and that you have to exactly nail every bit of it in order to be successful.  I know that would take me a few tries at least.

Brandon has mentioned that following some of these processes can improve the beer. Some other people have put it more in the "you must comply 100% or it won't work" way. The second way sounds too problematic to me. Bryan and Brandon have both told me that I should be able to do it without any additional equipment and with just the SMB in the mash, so I would have to find that. I have made my helles enough times to be able to decide if one batch made "a difference". I think I would be able to make a decision on whether the low-O2 is really making a positive change to the beer or whether I don't think it's worth the trouble. Sure I could make one batch and whiff somewhere in the process and make a beer similar to what I make now but I could see the benefit to trying it once (maybe twice) and see if I notice a difference. I have no reason to say "WOW! WHATTA DIFFERENCE!" for no reason. I would only say that if my tastebuds told me so.

[positiveContact]

can't you use campden tablets?  prepare yourself to use a lot of them though

 

it looks like you can buy it at homebrew shops (Williams for instance).  just be careful with it in it's powdered form - I guess it can be an irritant.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 26 April 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[denny]

Brandon has mentioned that following some of these processes can improve the beer. Some other people have put it more in the "you must comply 100% or it won't work" way. The second way sounds too problematic to me. Bryan and Brandon have both told me that I should be able to do it without any additional equipment and with just the SMB in the mash, so I would have to find that. I have made my helles enough times to be able to decide if one batch made "a difference". I think I would be able to make a decision on whether the low-O2 is really making a positive change to the beer or whether I don't think it's worth the trouble. Sure I could make one batch and whiff somewhere in the process and make a beer similar to what I make now but I could see the benefit to trying it once (maybe twice) and see if I notice a difference. I have no reason to say "WOW! WHATTA DIFFERENCE!" for no reason. I would only say that if my tastebuds told me so.

 

I've tried some of those processes without finding any difference.  In the letter I received, it was stated that you need to follow every step exactly or it won't work.  Ken, I spent 2 YEARS trying SMB in different stages of the brewing process.  It made absolutely no difference that I could detect.  To me, that says that I either didn't have a problem in the first place, or that if I did the SMB didn't fix it....because the beer was exactly the same.  You should of course try it for yourself and reach your own conclusion.

Something else I just thought of...if it's the sulfites that are making this effective, then potassium metabite ought to work as well as sodium metabite.  Is there any possibility that the sodium itself is causing the flavor change or is it the sulfite?

[positiveContact]

maybe a bit of salt would make that malt flavor pop?