125 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

My bottle shop here carries it in 16oz brown bottles and the beer is usually in pretty good shape. I have picked it up many times and it's a delicious beer as you would expect from Ayinger. It's supposed to be a Dort so then the question is whether you up the sulfate a little because dorts usually have a bit of that dry, chalky thing happening. I know that I probably mention this on every recipe posted in here but... 154° mash temp seems nutty high to me on a beer like this. I realize everyone's system is different and clearly everyone knows their system the best but I would want this beer to finish dry (yes there could be some sweetness but not a lot) and I would probably need to mash it around 150°. Again, that's just me. Of all the lager yeasts I have used, I have not used 833 in a very long time so no idea there. How does it compare to say, 830?

[positiveContact]

My bottle shop here carries it in 16oz brown bottles and the beer is usually in pretty good shape. I have picked it up many times and it's a delicious beer as you would expect from Ayinger. It's supposed to be a Dort so then the question is whether you up the sulfate a little because dorts usually have a bit of that dry, chalky thing happening. I know that I probably mention this on every recipe posted in here but... 154° mash temp seems nutty high to me on a beer like this. I realize everyone's system is different and clearly everyone knows their system the best but I would want this beer to finish dry (yes there could be some sweetness but not a lot) and I would probably need to mash it around 150°. Again, that's just me. Of all the lager yeasts I have used, I have not used 833 in a very long time so no idea there. How does it compare to say, 830?

 

never used 830 so not sure how to compare.  I could back off that mash temp.  Probably not a bad idea.

 

as for the style - I don't think this is really a dort as others have said.  it's a "munich export" and I don't think the water is that high in sulfate/chloride.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 09 August 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[positiveContact]

OG: 1.051

FG: 1.011

ABV: 5.2%

IBU: 24

 

MALT:

15 lbs Pilsen Malt (Best Malz)

  2 lbs Munich Malt (Best Malz)

  1 lbs Carapils/Carafoam

 

mash @ 150F, single infusion (I usually mash overnight)

 

I'll do my best to get my Calcium up around 50 ppm while keeping both sulfate and chloride under 50 or 60 ppm.  This means I'll be adding gypsum and calcium chloride of course.  I'll make up the remainder of my pH adjustment with lactic acid and shoot for a pH of 5.2-5.3.  I'll sparge with 2 gallons or less of untreated (but soft) water so my pre-boil pH should still be around 5.2-5.3.

 

HOPS:

? oz Hallertau @ 60 mins to get IBUs up to 24 total

1.0 oz Hallertau @ 5 mins

1.0 oz Hallertau @ flameout

2.0 oz Hallertau @ hop stand

 

FERMENT:

A large (I'll work out appropriate numbers later) starter of WL833 with the temp controller set to 50F (probe stuck to the side of the fermentor).

[Big Nake]

The consensus on this style (a dort... whether or not this is a dort is open for discussion but Jamil and someone else like Tasty McDole were on a podcast comparing this beer to Great Lakes Dortmunder Gold and I had always heard it was a dort...) is that it used to come in more minerally than it does today. Another example of a beer that had a certain character but then dumbed it down for the masses to make it more marketable, etc. FTR, I do not get a very minerally character from Ayinger Jahrhundert. The term EXPORT seemed to be connected to Dorts so maybe there is some confusion. On the mash temp... do what you know works on your system. I have learned that I like my beers on the dry side and that I don't care for an overly sweet finish regardless of style. Yes, I will accept a sweeter finish on some styles but for me personally, I don't want a lot of thick sweetness in the finish so I continually adjust downward on my own mash temps with better and better results. MLPA used to be mashed at 152° but I recently lowered that to 150° and the results are stellar but again... that's MY tastebuds and MY system. YMMV.

[Brauer]

The term EXPORT seemed to be connected to Dorts so maybe there is some confusion.

In Germany, Export loosely means higher gravity (1.048 to 1.056 OG). It is, more specifically applied to Dortmund, Munich and (less often, these days) Vienna styles. The Munich Export is probably still minerally, but probably a more Calcium-rich, than Sulfate-rich beer.  It's also more noticeably malty than Dortmunder.

 

do you brew with this yeast with any frequency?  I've never really settled on a "best" lager fermentation profile for homebrewers.

 

Not so frequently. Maybe only a half-dozen times, or so; maybe a little more. I often default to 830, for it's forgiveness. I did try 833 at steam temperatures, as well as with slow and accelerated profiles and it also seemed pretty forgiving. I did feel that I got less character from it than I find in the Ayinger beers.

 

I don't believe in 1 best lager fermentation profile, anymore. There are a number of good approaches. I don't think this is a problematic yeast, but it does get fruity when fermented up around 65F, early.

[3rd party JKor]

I'm debating on my next batch, a Dort is high on the list. I'm going to have to grab some jahrhundert to see if it tips the scales.

ETA: So the new BJCP cat for dort is Helles Export? Why the change?

Edited by JKor, 09 August 2015 - 09:15 PM.

[MyaCullen]

I'm debating on my next batch, a Dort is high on the list. I'm going to have to grab some jahrhundert to see if it tips the scales.

ETA: So the new BJCP cat for dort is Helles Export? Why the change?

a lot of those chamges are ????

[Brauer]

I'm debating on my next batch, a Dort is high on the list. I'm going to have to grab some jahrhundert to see if it tips the scales.

ETA: So the new BJCP cat for dort is Helles Export? Why the change?

In most German pubs, if you order a "Helles", you'll probably get an Export. It's usually just called Export, but Helles Export is an accepted name for the style in common usage. You probably won't hear anyone in Germany refer to Dortmunder, unless they are talking about DAB or lamenting the Dortmunder Union brewery, which is sadly now gone due to brewery mergers and was the real Dortmunder Export. 

[Big Nake]

The last time I had a DAB (maybe in the last year or so?), it was hard to tell it apart from other Euro gold lagers in the dort, helles or pilsner categories. Aside from those hoppier German pilsners like Jever, I noticed A LOT of very straightforward gold lagers like Stiegl, Gambrinus, Zipfer... all of which seemed more like a helles unless my tastebuds were failing. I had always thought that Dorts were a little drier and heavier on the sulfate but that was either not true or something that has come and gone in favor of a more streamlined flavor. I know a number of people who really like GLDG but IIRC, the recipe has crystal malt in it and possibly hops that are not traditional. The podcast I was talking about had Jamil in favor of the Ayinger Jahrhundert and pretty much slamming the GLDG as inferior. I have not had a GLDG in quite some time but my guess is that it's a well-made beer whether it's a dort or not.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 10 August 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[positiveContact]

So what do you guys think of the grain I proposed?  Too much or too little munich?  Too much carapils?  I don't think this beer has any caramunich or anything like that in it.  I believe it should be fairly straight forward taste-wise.

[3rd party JKor]

I'd be going for something heavier on the salt additions, but that might be more appropriate for a Dortmund style export than a Munich style.

[positiveContact]

I'd be going for something heavier on the salt additions, but that might be more appropriate for a Dortmund style export than a Munich style.

 

what kind of final numbers would you be shooting for?

[3rd party JKor]

200ppm sulfate, 100ppm chloride

[HVB]

200ppm sulfate, 100ppm chloride

[neddles]

So what do you guys think of the grain I proposed?  Too much or too little munich?  Too much carapils?  I don't think this beer has any caramunich or anything like that in it.  I believe it should be fairly straight forward taste-wise.

I would enjoy it like you have it. Compared to my memory of the original I would not add any more munich, especially if it is the darker 10L stuff.

 

You weren't asking me but what the hell. Were it mine, for water I would probably include 40-50ppm each of sulfate and chloride and call it good. My memory of the beer isn't good enough to guess on the mineral content.

[positiveContact]

 

x2

 

I would enjoy it like you have it. Compared to my memory of the original I would not add any more munich, especially if it is the darker 10L stuff.

 

You weren't asking me but what the hell. Were it mine, for water I would probably include 40-50ppm each of sulfate and chloride and call it good. My memory of the beer isn't good enough to guess on the mineral content.

 

that's kind of the realm I'd like for chloride and sulfate but my calcium might be a little low.  but I seem to remember lagers handle lower calcium better than ales so maybe it's not a big deal.

[3rd party JKor]

Classic Dortmund profile is 330 ppm sulfate, 120 ppm chloride, or in that vicinity.

[neddles]

Yeah, screw calcium. Use finings and drink fresh on this one would be my preference.

[positiveContact]

Classic Dortmund profile is 330 ppm sulfate, 120 ppm chloride, or in that vicinity.

 

that seems like a LOT of sulfate for a beer this delicate.  I can't imagine this particular beer (ayinger) has anything close to that.  we should really all sit down and drink one of these stat!

[3rd party JKor]

Northeast Brews-Bros tasting party!  We need to get some DAB, Ayinger and GL Dort Gold and do some tasting.