61 replies to this topic

[denny]

That seems like a lot but 10% phosphoric is pretty weak. Just for comparison, I need only a couple of mL to acidify my sparge water with 88% lactic.

 

Which raises the question, why not use lactic?

[MtnBrewer]

Which raises the question, why not use lactic?

Or a more concentrated phosphoric. But I'm guessing that's what he's using because that's what he's got on hand.

[shaggaroo]

I have an n=1 good experience with acid malt.  i wasn't relying on it to do a lot so maybe that was a key part of my success

I have an n=20 good experience with acid malt. Easy to store, no liquid to have to deal with.

[MtnBrewer]

I have an n=20 good experience with acid malt. Easy to store, no liquid to have to deal with.

I have nothing bad to say about acid malt but I just don't see the point. Why keep another malt around when I could just have a little bottle of acid? I have not found liquids significantly harder to deal with than solids. Gases on the other hand...

[positiveContact]

I have nothing bad to say about acid malt but I just don't see the point. Why keep another malt around when I could just have a little bottle of acid? I have not found liquids significantly harder to deal with than solids. Gases on the other hand...

 

does the acid malt help with the sparge at all?  just curious if anyone knows if any of the acidifying properties remain after the mash is drained.

 

it's pretty much just lagers of the lighter persuasion that I need to acidify and I don't want to use gypsum or calcium chloride.  given how frequently this occurs it's not a big deal to stop by the LHBS and pick up some acid malt.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't use lactic acid, it just doesn't matter much either way what I use.

Edited by TheGuv, 16 June 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

does the acid malt help with the sparge at all?  just curious if anyone knows if any of the acidifying properties remain after the mash is drained.

I would guess that all of the lactic acid that was on the surface of the malt would have dissolved into the mash by the time you get around to sparging.

[positiveContact]

I would guess that all of the lactic acid that was on the surface of the malt would have dissolved into the mash by the time you get around to sparging.

 

good to know.  I don't believe this is an issue for my water but it could be an important point for others.

[Big Nake]

I've been using 3.7%. What I just read from Kai says around 5% is the threshold. So I'm OK there, and the beer has never tasted lactic. Question is, what happens with the sparge? I'm guessing that I should acidify the sparge and that has been what I've been doing and anecdotally the beer has turned out great.

Yes... acidify the sparge water. For years, people told me that batch spargers COULD NOT get any tannin extract in a batch sparge. On pale beers with the level of bicarb I have, I add 1.5ml to 2.0ml of lactic acid to approx. 4 gallons of batch sparge water. It lowers the pH of the water to begin with and keeps pH levels in the mid-5s.

[Brauer]

The case against acidulated malt is that it tends to vary a bit in strength resulting in less predictable mash pH. Will probably be fine in most cases but 88% lactic acid (which is my preference) will be more predictable and repeatable IME.

Where did you see this? Was this something that someone measured or just a speculation? I suppose this could be true between manufacturers, but I would have to see evidence to believe that it varies for a quality maltster like Weyermann.

[MtnBrewer]

Where did you see this? Was this something that someone measured or just a speculation? I suppose this could be true between manufacturers, but I would have to see evidence to believe that it varies for a quality maltster like Weyermann.

Agree but it does seem logical that adding the lactic directly to the mash rather than spraying it on malt first would be more consistent.

[codemonkey]

Which raises the question, why not use lactic?

 

Lactic acid ions are quite flavorful. This, as is the case with sulfate and chloride, can be a blessing or a curse depending on whether a lactic flavor is desired in the beer.

 

Another popular choice in the US is phosphoric acid which is also readily available from home brew suppliers but which has the advantage of being quite flavor neutral so that quite a bit of alkalinity can be disposed of without flavor detriment.

source

 

There's not a lot going into the beers I'm making, so I'm pretty apprehensive about anything that adds flavor. Still, I think I'll be ok with the 2 or 3 ml of lactic I'll need to use.

[Mya]

source

 

There's not a lot going into the beers I'm making, so I'm pretty apprehensive about anything that adds flavor. Still, I think I'll be ok with the 2 or 3 ml of lactic I'll need to use.

 

I personally can't detect it at that level

[denny]

Yes... acidify the sparge water. For years, people told me that batch spargers COULD NOT get any tannin extract in a batch sparge. On pale beers with the level of bicarb I have, I add 1.5ml to 2.0ml of lactic acid to approx. 4 gallons of batch sparge water. It lowers the pH of the water to begin with and keeps pH levels in the mid-5s.

 

Yeah, that's a myth that I probably have helped to perpetuate.  I've modified my stance to be that batch spargers are much less likely to have sparge pH issues than fly spargers.  But depending on the grist and your water, it is possible.

source

 

There's not a lot going into the beers I'm making, so I'm pretty apprehensive about anything that adds flavor. Still, I think I'll be ok with the 2 or 3 ml of lactic I'll need to use.

 

 

You'll never know it's there.  I use more than that on beers that are all pils malt.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, that's a myth that I probably have helped to perpetuate.  I've modified my stance to be that batch spargers are much less likely to have sparge pH issues than fly spargers.  But depending on the grist and your water, it is possible.

I have been trying to spread the word as gospel based on my dark(ish), grainy & husky pale beers. I watched one batch in particular (when I was suspicious) when I added the sparge water to the MT and saw the pH go from 5.6 to 5.8 to 6.0 to 6.2, etc. Denny, I'm not sure if you helped with that rumor but if you did, you had a lot of help. This probably came from people who never experienced it for themselves based on styles they make, their water composition, etc. I can't tell you how many homebrewing cowboys out there said that batch spargers COULD NOT extract tannins in the sparge.

[positiveContact]

I have been trying to spread the word as gospel based on my dark(ish), grainy & husky pale beers. I watched one batch in particular (when I was suspicious) when I added the sparge water to the MT and saw the pH go from 5.6 to 5.8 to 6.0 to 6.2, etc. Denny, I'm not sure if you helped with that rumor but if you did, you had a lot of help. This probably came from people who never experienced it for themselves based on styles they make, their water composition, etc. I can't tell you how many homebrewing cowboys out there said that batch spargers COULD NOT extract tannins in the sparge.

 

do you let things hang out when you batch sparge or do you drain the sparge right away?

 

I'm still of the opinion that it takes temp + pH + time.  any one of these could be somewhat high and if the others are not tannin extraction should be minimal.  What is certainly possible is that your pre-boil pH is off b/c of your high sparge pH and perhaps this is ultimately leading to some undesireable outcomes from that point forward in the process.

[Poptop]

This is a great post and I don't want to get it off track but I am 'learning' Brun and have a quick question on Lactic (ml) amounts.  On Brun's page 3. Water Adjustments under Total Water Additions it directs to add .9ml to mash and .8 to Sparge.  Can anyone tell me if these are total amounts or amounts per gallon?  In my case I have a 4.5 gal mash water and 4.5 batch sparge.  Thank you and appreciate your advice.  Mike

[codemonkey]

This is a great post and I don't want to get it off track but I am 'learning' Brun and have a quick question on Lactic (ml) amounts.  On Brun's page 3. Water Adjustments under Total Water Additions it directs to add .9ml to mash and .8 to Sparge.  Can anyone tell me if these are total amounts or amounts per gallon?  In my case I have a 4.5 gal mash water and 4.5 batch sparge.  Thank you and appreciate your advice.  Mike

That's total, not per gallon. The ml/gal number is over on the left, cell B26 in my version.

[Poptop]

Thanks Code!

[Big Nake]

do you let things hang out when you batch sparge or do you drain the sparge right away? I'm still of the opinion that it takes temp + pH + time.  any one of these could be somewhat high and if the others are not tannin extraction should be minimal.  What is certainly possible is that your pre-boil pH is off b/c of your high sparge pH and perhaps this is ultimately leading to some undesireable outcomes from that point forward in the process.

I used to drain pretty much right away. The only reason it takes me slightly longer to drain now is that I wait until my sample cools and I get a good pH reading. Although my sparge pH reading is pretty much a formality now because I'm adding 1.5 to 2.0ml of acid to the sparge water as it's heating so the reading is just to find out where it is, not to see if it's too high. I agree that a higher-than-desired kettle pH can futz with your beer as well but let's put it this way: If I had a mash pH of 5.2 and my sparge pH somehow got to 6.2, my kettle pH should be somewhere around 5.7 (I realize it could swing a little) which should not cause a problem in the kettle. That would suggest that in that example, the 6.2 pH of the sparge caused more damage to the beer than the kettle pH. I have actually been thinking that I'm overdoing the pH lately because I have had some batches with a mash pH of 5.2 and some with a sparge pH of 5.2 or 5.3, leaving me with a kettle pH of 5.2 to 5.3 which is probably too low. I may be making more of that than necessary but I plan to ease off the acid a little.

[neddles]

Where did you see this? Was this something that someone measured or just a speculation? I suppose this could be true between manufacturers, but I would have to see evidence to believe that it varies for a quality maltster like Weyermann.

Well that's good question. I did read it somewhere, maybe more than once but I can seem to source it now. I will look some more later. My N=1 with it was inconsistent so I just removed it from the equation. It makes sense that any quality maltster would not have this variability. And, that on the scales that German breweries use it, it has to be accurate. However, I do wonder if there could be some variation between an ounce or two here ounces here/or a few ounces there within a sack that averages out in the large quantities that breweries are using it. 

 

All that said, FWIW AJ DeLange insists that he gets better flavor from acid malt than from lactic acid alone. Martin's BrunWater info page suggests this as well. I am doubtful my palette would notice difference but maybe I'll try it again someday.

 

Probably a lot of hair splitting here anyways, Gordon Strong has won 3 Ninkasi's using 100% RO water and phosphoric acid.

Edited by ettels4, 17 June 2014 - 12:14 PM.